Many good writers seem to get ignored

Cthulhu wrote:

... But you've had a review from Azila... Wow, you must have some high expectations.

AzilasAzila's review wasn't helpful because I had already heard what she pointed out, and, as she says, she's outside my target audience, and their for , therefore, it resulted in no changes (which is my watermark for helpfulness.) are you sure you don't mean "hallmark"?
That is not her fault or due to poor reviewing skills on her part, it's a result of me gathering feedback through many sources [very few of which are online]. (I think parentheses would do just fine here. And does that mean, then, that it's your fault? I'm just toying with some ideas here.)

You've received a number of good and detailed reviews.

In your opinion, not mine. Furthermore, I said Helpful "helpful", and none of the reviews helped me, at all,; that is not an opinion. In my opinion, I think that is an opinion. Actually, no, it's a fact that that's an opinion, as opinions are defined as judgments about something not based on fact. Since no one can definitively determine the usefulness or impact of someone's speech, it falls under opinion--a pretty rude one, at that.

I got you this. There are a few stray commas that I have marked out. Edits are in red. I hope it helps!

Kyllorac wrote:By complaining about the reviews you've received, you've pretty much ensured that you will not be getting quality reviews as no one wants to spend all that time writing a review for someone who will not appreciate it.

^*like*

Once someone has become so entrenched in a position, it's impossible for him or her to concede for fear of losing face. Trolls don't give in unless they're going out of their way to act like trolls--and it's a little late for an April Fools' Day joke.

I think everyone has stated their positions pretty clearly; I say it's time to put this baby to rest (and I mean "baby" in the most accusative of ways).

Just to go over a couple points brought up.

Views / Reads

The original poster brought up how he may have "10 views" but 0 comments. The views number, though, is a highly unreliable number. First, views are not unique views; they're just views. So if you're the author of a piece and you re-load or re-visit that page 10 times, then that's 10 views right there.

It's similar with regards to reviewers. Every comment you get leads to at least two views. The first view is when the reviewer reads the piece and the second view is when the reviewer submits the review. Moreover, a lot of people do not read and review a piece all in one sitting. Then once someone reviews a piece, they tend to revisit that piece whenever someone else reviews, leading to even more "views."

But secondly, a lot of views are just search engine bots. At any given point in time, YWS has ten different search engine bots scouring the site. Then there's the additional number of malicious spam bots scouring the site for vulnerabilities. Each time a bot visits a page, that's a "view." Most "views" are in fact not made by humans at all.

To underscore my point, here is the third most popular topic by views:
A War In Evol | Chapter I: The Silver Eagles

Chapter 1 of the "War in Evol" saga has an astonishing 66,042 views. The only topics more "popular" are Post Your Pic [4] and the Character Answer Game. And yet, War in Evol only has three comments. How rude of the remaining 66,039 people to not have reviewed, eh?


Comparing YWS to Other Writing Sites

Cthulu brought a few forums to compare YWS to. I was not able to track down what OYAN is, and "creative writing forum" way too vague for the name of a site.

However, the other two I am quite familiar with: WritingForums.org, and WritersBeat.com. Both are excellent sites, but neither sees as many reviews as claimed. WritersBeat is a relatively quiet site compared to YWS, and gets about 3 to 5 new literary works per day (YWS gets anywhere from 30 to 70 new literary works per day with the average around 43 and climbing). Even the quiet activity, you're not guaranteed really any more reviews you get at WB than you do at YWS. Indeed, on average, you actually get more reviews here at YWS. That's kind of sad because WB used to be an extremely popular writing site, but it's died down in recent years (as most forum communities have).

Concerning WritingForums.org, they're actually quite a bit smaller than YWS but they are still a very active and robust writing community. However, WF benefits from having an active membership but few literary works posted. As I said, on YWS, we get 30-70 new works per day. But WF, like WB, only gets about 3 to 5 per day. If you visit their poetry forum, one will see that even works which had their last comment over a week ago still make it to the first page of the poetry forum. On YWS, that's not true for any of our poetry forums and we have 4 of them (and people wonder why I created 4 poetry forums!). And even so, as Ego already demonstrated, we get roughly the same number of comments per work. And the reviews themselves are much like on YWS; some are great, some are just "I love this", and some are illegible.

So compared to WF and WB, YWS does quite well. And we have to have 100 new reviews every day at a minimum just to keep up with all the literary works posted (our current average for April is around 118 reviews per day). And that's reviews. I don't count comments by the author in that, and I don't count comments with less than 250 characters either. That's 100 actual reviews at an absolute minimum.


Overall

This thread is mis-titled. The original poster isn't complaining about good authors not getting enough reviews; he's complaining that he's not getting all the reviews he wants. In part, that's because all his works are posted in the lyrics forum and it's a legitimate gripe that the lyrics forum does not get all the attention it should. To fix that, I can just move that to under the Poetry category, which is probably where it belongs anyways.

But are there as many reviews as I'd like to see? No way. While the claim that other writing sites receive more is not really true, I still think YWS should be able to manage 150 reviews per day on average. But the fundamental problem getting there is that reviewing is a lonely activity not perceived as fun. Indeed, those who have complained have focused on calling reviewing a "duty" or an "obligation." If you wish to encourage reviews, that's precisely the wrong way to do it.

Rather, reviewing has to be turned into a social activity. One example of this is Review Day. We manage a ton of reviews on Review Day because it gets turned into a social activity. Even better, that creates a short-term perception that reviewing is always social, leading to the Review Day high that continues for a few days after Review Day.

So the question then becomes, how do you make reviewing a social activity every day of the month?

Rosey Unicorn actually came up with an idea two summers ago that answers that question and which we'll be implementing soon: Review Teams. What happens is those who wish to join get randomly split up into four groups. Those four groups then compete for the most points earned in a month. It's also up to those groups to come up with a name, a flag, and even a chant if they so desire.

Review Teams should help make reviewing more of a social activity while also introducing some benign competition into the mix. By combining those elements together, I could very easily see reviews per day increase from the current 118 to 150 very easily. In fact, I wouldn't be too surprised if it jumped to 200.

Plus, since the competition is for points rather than reviews, a team whose members do 100 rapid-fire reviews will lose to a team that does 10 quality reviews.

All in all, though, if you are upset you're not getting enough reviews, I think that's a legitimate gripe. What's not legitimate is to attack others or preach about how reviewing is some kind of scared duty. It's not; we all have busy lives and reviewing comes last in those lives. Indeed, even getting one review is somewhat of a miracle considering the amount of time it takes and that one does it for free.

Nate is right, about the inaccuracies of the "topic viewed" number! To provide a humorous example, just recently, I submitted a work and refreshed it about a dozen times, just in case someone would comment! Anyway, I grew quite distressed after a time, because the "topic viewed" number kept on increasing and nobody was commenting! Well... it was because I was refreshing my topic so much that I had a large amount of views. Oops!

Now, I want to address something else! As somebody who has done 3215 reviews at this point of time and has a review ratio which states that I have done almost 19 reviews for every work that I've posted, I am rather upset with this whole discussion. First of all? My first priority of reviewing is those who are newest to YWS, and I know a lot of other people, many of them older members, who feel this exact same way. They wish to give back to YWS by giving back to the newer generation. So, there's this huge undercurrent of wanting to be as helpful as we can, especially to the newer generation. But, there aren't enough of us who are active. I know for myself I am drowning in school work (I am expected to spend 66 hours a week doing school and class work), plus I am job-hunting, plus I am preparing for graduation, plus dealing with life in general. I can't do as many reviews as I did when I was younger. And I wish this wasn't the case -- really, I do! -- but it is the way things must be.

What we desperately need is the younger generation to step forward and say, "There aren't enough reviews? I will help change this." Cthulu, I hate to pick on you, but as you are the one with the most grievances in this thread, let me try to explain it this way: you have a total of seven reviews as I write this. I can do seven reviews in a night, easily, even with everything else that I have to do. You want things to change? That's wonderful. But Todd Rundgren was right in this lovely song when he said that change had to come within first. And, really, I'm not trying to pick on you. I know that your frustrations are shared by many, many members and many of them have come to me, telling me exactly this. And trust me, I tell them exactly what I am telling you: you can help change this around. You just have to grit your teeth and set to work. You can make a difference and you can set a new tone. But you need to be willing to work for what you want for it to be possible.

So, if you're not getting helpful reviews, my best advice is to give out helpful reviews and lead by example. If somebody gives you a helpful review, thank that person and make sure that they know that you are truly grateful for their input. If somebody gives you a not-so-helpful review, thank that person specifically for what was helpful and then ask polite questions to clarify the unhelpful part of their review ("What did you mean when you said that this character was too soppy in this scene?") so that they can become helpful. Mentor them and show them direction. Build meaningful relationships with other members and help them out whenever you can. Get involved. Maybe you can join one of these review teams that Nate has talked about, for instance! That may be an excellent way to get involved.

Is this a hassle? Sure. The older members who can help are often busy and the younger members are often inexperienced. However, Mahatma Gandhi was right when he said, "You must be the change you want to see in the world."

And don't buy into the belief that you are not powerful enough on YWS to make a difference. Already on this thread, you have spurred on a discussion about reviewing and YWS, even causing a lot of the moderating staff to read what you've written. So, you definitely have the power to be influential. The question is, in what way do you want to be influential? Through your words, you have helped bring up an issue that should be addressed and is being discussed in the YWS staff forums. So, your words have influence. Now, let your actions have influence. You do not need to be powerless. You can help set the new tone.

I'm not saying it'll be easy -- trust me, I know how hard it can be. But, nothing is impossible and, with a little bit of elbow grease, I think you'll be surprised how much better things can be.

I was not able to track down what OYAN is, and "creative writing forum" way too vague for the name of a site.

OYAN Is the One Year Adventure Novel forum, it's associated with the One Year Adventure Novel curriculum.
'creative writing forum' is the name Writingforums.org gives it's self on the main page and in a google search.

However, WF benefits from having an active membership but few literary works posted.

Perhaps that would be a good thing to encourage on here as well, They have much more stringent rules about how soon you can post your first piece of writing, and they require all critiques counted for whether or not a new piece can be posted be constructive, Why not enact similar rules here as well?

The minimum participation is two constructive critiques prior to each piece of writing you post for feedback. This requirement will be strictly enforced, and decisions on whether or not a critique is constructive are final.

Additionally, you must be registered for at least 14 days and have made 20 posts before you can create a thread in our workshops. New members, consider familiarizing yourselves with our site and the critiquing process.

Indeed, those who have complained have focused on calling reviewing a "duty" or an "obligation." If you wish to encourage reviews, that's precisely the wrong way to do it.

I feel impelled to point out that neither I nor the OP characterized it in that way.

So the question then becomes, how do you make reviewing a social activity every day of the month?

How about encouraging [frendle and pilot] discussion between author and reviewer concerning the review and piece of writing?

What's not legitimate is to attack others or preach about how reviewing is some kind of scared duty.

As the only active poster on my side of this issue I get the feeling this is directed at me, in which case I feel I must defend my honor by saying that I have not personally attacked anyone, or "preach [Ed] about how reviewing is some kind of sacred duty".
If this was not directed at me feel free to ignore this comment.

And we have to have 100 new reviews every day at a minimum just to keep up with all the literary works posted (our current average for April is around 118 reviews per day).

I think it is good that people are holding to the two to one minimum, but feel that the fact review numbers do not exceed the enforced minimum by an approachable margin reflects poorly on us all [myself included]

but neither sees as many reviews as claimed.

Are you saying I'm lying about my numbers?

I personally collected those numbers, by actually reading each piece of work posted within a normal time frame, They are accurate.

as Ego already demonstrated, we get roughly the same number of comments per work.

I believe Ego's method was flawed, for reasons already stated.

I contend that review numbers can't improve until we accept that they need to be higher.

Cthulu, I hate to pick on you, but as you are the one with the most grievances in this thread, let me try to explain it this way: you have a total of seven reviews as I write this.

And I wish to point out I piece of writing, that is more than three times the required ratio.

I can do seven reviews in a night, easily, even with everything else that I have to do

My last review came [counting quoits] to 2855 words and contained at least half a dozen examples of every problem mentioned [in the review].
It I also try to universally review pieces with no reviews, and I make sure that the user doesn't have any questions or comments about my review before I leave the thread.

So, if you're not getting helpful reviews, my best advice is to give out helpful reviews and lead by example.

I do try to do that.

If somebody gives you a helpful review, thank that person and make sure that they know that you are truly grateful for their input. If somebody gives you a not-so-helpful review, thank that person specifically for what was helpful and then ask polite questions to clarify the unhelpful part of their review ("What did you mean when you said that this character was too soppy in this scene?") so that they can become helpful.

I was under the impression I was not supposed to be doing that, I've wanted to for some time. But I can not do this unless reviews watch the threads they have posted reviews in.

And don't buy into the belief that you are not powerful enough on YWS to make a difference. Already on this thread, you have spurred on a discussion about reviewing and YWS, even causing a lot of the moderating staff to read what you've written. So, you definitely have the power to be influential. The question is, in what way do you want to be influential? Through your words, you have helped bring up an issue that should be addressed and is being discussed in the YWS staff forums. So, your words have influence. Now, let your actions have influence. You do not need to be powerless. You can help set the new tone.

Until I read this I had actually left this entire forum, Thank You.

Nate wrote:Rosey Unicorn actually came up with an idea two summers ago that answers that question and which we'll be implementing soon: Review Teams. What happens is those who wish to join get randomly split up into four groups. Those four groups then compete for the most points earned in a month. It's also up to those groups to come up with a name, a flag, and even a chant if they so desire.

That's an awesome idea! I'm excited for this.

They have much more stringent rules about how soon you can post your first piece of writing, and they require all critiques counted for whether or not a new piece can be posted be constructive, Why not enact similar rules here as well?

Because it would kill site activity by making reviewing more of a chore/duty and less fun (which has happened in the past). Not to mention enforcement would be an absolute pain.

It may not be obvious on the surface, but one of the duties of the moderators is to keep an eye out for people who aren't so great at reviewing and then mentor them. Most of the time, the folks not reviewing as helpfully are folks who have no experience with reviewing, so they don't know how to be more helpful; we mods give them tips on how to review well and such.

I was under the impression I was not supposed to be doing that, I've wanted to for some time. But I can not do this unless reviews watch the threads they have posted reviews in.

I'm not sure where you got that impression, but replying to reviews (so long as it's civil and not defensive) is really appreciated by your reviewers. You also don't have to reply in the thread: posting on someone's Wall is one way, while sending them a PM is another.

This is to Nate:

For your information I wasn't talking about just me not getting enough reviews. How dare you even think of such a thing. When I wrote this post I wrote it with sincerity. I have visited many writers on here who wrote very good work, but yet still had 0 comments. When I mention other people I was actually talking about "OTHER PEOPLE" and I was not only talking about my self.

Just because you own the site or whatever, doesn't mean you have all the answers.

dregymayfield wrote:This is to Nate:

For your information I wasn't talking about just me not getting enough reviews. How dare you even think of such a thing. When I wrote this post I wrote it with sincerity. I have visited many writers on here who wrote very good work, but yet still had 0 comments. When I mention other people I was actually talking about "OTHER PEOPLE" and I was not only talking about my self.

Just because you own the site or whatever, doesn't mean you have all the answers.

As has been said in this thread, we're a member base, while active and eager to review, that has busy lives outside of reading and reviewing. For example, I have costumes until four every day, then homework until about five, then I had chores and dinner afterward, which doesn't let me come on YWS for very long- when I do, I'm usually too tired or burnt out to review. I'd like to review more, but I get busy and I'm hoping that it will pick up in the summer. I'm sure many are thinking the same thing.

We have a Will Review For Food thread for a reason. It takes time for authors to read and review works, and it can take longer to receive a helpful critique if the author doesn't make any efforts and just sits there, waiting. Some boards are less active then others, which is something that can't really be changed; some things we can review, others we can't- sometimes it's just a matter of the piece that's being read isn't tailored to what the reviewer can and can't critique.

Seriously, all you have do as an author is ask.

I'm amazed how everyone seems to be oblivious to the fact that I am well aware that people have lives out side of this site. I'm not an idiot.

I also, know on the other side that there are a lot of people who are not very busy...it goes both ways. I already explained that notion in this post before. It's just an excuse a lot of people say (NOT EVERYONE), but a lot will say this exact same thing when they themselves may be home the majority of the time. I've seen people who are in their 20's on this site. I'm sure there are some of those who are unemployed who just waste time all day playing video games or checking this site out. So you can't say "EVERYONE" is busy, because that's just not the case..and that was the point I made in the first place.

I also said that because I'm new that I don't expect to get many reviews as well. Although, everyone seems to have not read that part...Talking to you Nate and anyone else who thinks i'm just complaining because i'm not getting any comments.

Also, asking someone to critique your work seems a bit odd. To be honest, right now I don't care if I get any comments at all. I had a problem with it at first, but now I don't care and I'm actually surprised people are still making comments on this post.

Just let it go
If I could delete this post I would .

Masquerade wrote:

Nate wrote:Rosey Unicorn actually came up with an idea two summers ago that answers that question and which we'll be implementing soon: Review Teams. What happens is those who wish to join get randomly split up into four groups. Those four groups then compete for the most points earned in a month. It's also up to those groups to come up with a name, a flag, and even a chant if they so desire.

That's an awesome idea! I'm excited for this.

I too second this awesome idea. ^-^ I think it'd really amp up reviewing for the site. Not to mention it just sounds like it'd be a lot of fun.

dregymayfield wrote:
I've seen people who are in their 20's on this site. I'm sure there are some of those who are unemployed who just waste time all day playing video games or checking this site out. So you can't say "EVERYONE" is busy, because that's just not the case..and that was the point I made in the first place.

Maybe to those 20 year olds, that is busy. Maybe to them, sitting at home, playing video games is not a waste of time. The point is, you can't force people to review when they'd rather do something else. The only thing you can do is *pleasantly* and *politely* ask and hope they'll take the time out of their lives to do that for you. It's that simple.

dregymayfield wrote:
I've seen people who are in their 20's on this site. I'm sure there are some of those who are unemployed who just waste time all day playing video games or checking this site out. So you can't say "EVERYONE" is busy, because that's just not the case..and that was the point I made in the first place.

This made me laugh. And it kinda stung a little, with its ignorance and generalization.

Lol..forcing people to review my stuff...that's hillarious

Asking someone politely to review anything is politely forcing someone to read your stuff.
I was sticking up for the people who have been here longer than I have and had 0 comments

That's not forcing anyone to review my stuff.

*sigh*

Ok, people.

dregy, I understand your concern, and I thank you for sticking up for those who don't have as many reviews.

Having said that, this site actually has a really high review rate.

I've been on sites where the review amount was really disproportionate--mediocre, poorly spelled works would have hundreds of reviews (these are often people who say things like "20 reviews to continue!") while excellent writers got one or none.

Also, have you noticed that you're only allowed to post two things a day? By limiting the amount you can post per day, the mods are promoting reviewing and other activity on the site.

Furthermore, reviewing gets you points. This is new for me. I've never been on a site where you were actually rewarded for reviewing.

And the good news about those pieces without any reviews, is that a)the author can go to one of the many special threads here to request a review, and b) it will probably be reviewed eventually.

As for replying to reviews, I've found it's easiest to just pm the person--the little button's right next to the review they left, and it includes their review in quotes, so they can remember the review and actually know what you're talking about. (I forget, so the reminder would be helpful.)

Basically, I think there are good points on both sides--the key here is to not become defensive. I didn't read all of this because I didn't have time, but I don't think anyone here is trying to attack you.

Having said that, this site actually has a really high review rate.

We went over that, the numbers say differently.

I've been on sites where the review amount was really disproportionate--mediocre, poorly spelled works would have hundreds of reviews (these are often people who say things like "20 reviews to continue!") while excellent writers got one or none.

Thats the anicdotal falicy, http://www.fallacyfiles.org/volvofal.html [please note this is for inforemation only, it' not ment to be hostile]

Also, have you noticed that you're only allowed to post two things a day? By limiting the amount you can post per day, the mods are promoting reviewing and other activity on the site.

But, As I pointed out, they could be promoting it much more.

And the good news about those pieces without any reviews, is that a)the author can go to one of the many special threads here to request a review, and b) it will probably be reviewed eventually.

Thair are problems with this, firstly it's self promotion, and many people feel uncomortable with that. Secondly, It's practly impossably to find a reviewer for action adventur type storys, or lyrics [and likly more ariea

This made me laugh. And it kinda stung a little, with its ignorance and generalization.

Ego, What gives you the right to personaly insult anuther member?