discussion on Twilight (and Eragon)

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A good vampire story includes the following:

-Awesome characters: In Dracula, we get, well, a vampire that transforms into mist, smoke, and wolves, he sucks blood, he's a polygamist, and he hires estate agents (XD), and the thing of his being all of the above makes him oh-so-sinister, without him having to tell us this in capital letters.
In The Saga of Darren Shan you have a kid transformed into a vampire (more on this later) who gets really angry about this, because he can never have a normal life, and all love is for naught. Aaaaaand Mr. Crepsley (he never talks with apostrophes. What's not to like?).
Twilight does not give us awesome characters, except for all the werewolves and Carlisle.

-Different vampires: Dracula didn't really need to be original, because, you know, he was in the first famous vampire book, FCS. But he does all the stuff described above, and, once you get to the end, you think, 'No way can I come up with a character this awesome'.
Darren Shan's vampires are not immortal (age ten years for each one), incredibly strong and fast (but at the same time scientific about it; so like saying 'OK, yeah yeah, the thing of the 'flitting' is a little unbelievable, but it explains the lock-opening thing!'), and have beliefs. And they're split into two factions... SPOILER ALERT FOR EVERYTHING I'VE SAID!!
Twilight has no shapeshifting-sinister-but-unmatchable-vampires, nor does it have noble-but-slightly-questionable-at-times-vampires. It has gloriously-pretty-vampires-who-are-incredibly-creepy-stalkers.

-A good vocabulary. Dracula speaks for itself.
Darren Shan is, while < Dracula, it does have some good vocab. And anyway, at least it's vocab in the way of 'I gripped the Little-Person's shin-bone as the rabid bear ran towards me, murder in its eyes', than 'Edward dazzled and sparkled like a marble pillar'.

-Romance that just isn't creepy. OK, well, Dracula passes this one, because a) its romance off screen, and b) Dracula, though polygamic, just doesn't work romantically.
Darren Shan has the issue of 'What if a vampire fell in love with a girl there, and, thirteen years later, comes back, only to discover that she's his twenty-six-year-old English teacher?' But it doesn't go to 'I watch you while you sleep' extremes; no, he just goes round to her place, chats, eats great food, studies, and, when he tries to kiss her romantically, gets slapped in the face. And at least he's protective in the 'I'm getting my friends to patrol the area just in case' rather than 'I will totally be Velcroed to your side, so you will never ever get rid of me'. And, hey, Mr. Crepsley had a one true love, who gets stabbed in the guts. The funeral scene is... touching.

-Action. Dracula raises his head for his one, because you've got the wolf bursting into Lucy's room (OK, yes, I spot the similarity. At least it's for nefarious aims, and does not attempt to hide it), the chasing of Dracula all the way to Romania, Jonathan Harker's escape. But it doesn't need a lot, so, you have the thing of us wandering round Dr. Seward's asylum, hearing conversations between Lucy, Mina, Lucy's fiancee and suitors, etc. But it's all evenly paced out.
Darren Shan in one way, is a (no pun intended) blood bath. You've got, for example, his breaking a human's leg to the bone, a wolf-man-thing rips up his (in that book) best friend, and not to mention the battle-scenes of spiked chains, swords, daggers, spears, and spiders. Oh the spiders. But this is all evenly paced too; for every four books, there is at least one major battle scene, from, say, a four-second-long one in the love-interest's house, to the final battle of Evil and Questionable Good.

-Finis. Let's recap.
1) Awesome characters; go for (if writing evil) sinister sophisticate, or (if writing good) make them likable but also at times, questionable, so the reader doesn't puke for them being so lovely.
2) Different vampires; add something new to the story that is vampires. Be it 'they actually age pretty slowly, and have their own vampire religion' to 'they are pure evil and must have a stake rammed into their hearts!'
3) Vocabulary. Try to use that big thesaurus on either book-form, on the internet, or even, like moi, a program that has a thesaurus.
4) Non-Creepy Romance. Try to make it, if anything, cute and occasionally frustrating rather than total and somewhat scary.
5) Action. Make this well-paced out rather than crammed into the end.

And six; when there is a moment, when you think, 'What do I do?' Then think of what Stephanie Meyer would do. And do the opposite.
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^Amazing post, and makes very many good points. Reading over it, you realize that it's not just everything a good vampire story should have, but also everything Twilight lacks.

I do disagree the slightest bit with one point, though:

4) Non-Creepy Romance. Try to make it, if anything, cute and occasionally frustrating rather than total and somewhat scary.


Personally, to me, the appeal of a vampire/human relationship is not that it's "cute". In fact, I don't think a vampire/human relationship can even be cute in the first place, because that implies some degree of normalcy. Given that the lovers are already of different species, and that the species have a predator-and-prey relationship, a normal relationship is clearly impossible. A good vampire-human couple should be dark, disturbing, wrong and frakked up on so many levels, and it should be treated as such. We all agree Edward/Bella is not the most healthy of relationships, but Meyer insists on giving it the "twoo ruv" treatment, without realizing the potential she's lost for writing a twisted relationship with an unhappy ending. (But I maintain that Twilight would have been better if Edward was a serial killer and Bella one of a long line of victims...but that's neither here nor there).

*shrugs* Then again, this is all my opinion, so feel free to disagree. Probably just my fondness for dark endings speaking.
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I'm currently brewing an idea for a sort of "what Twilight could have/should have been" type story. Some of the details I'm bringing back out of all the "traditional" vampire lore are the immortality, the need for human blood, and the whole pesky being damned to Hell and undead problem. I haven't decided whether crosses and silver would have an effect yet.

Personally, to me, the appeal of a vampire/human relationship is not that it's "cute". In fact, I don't think a vampire/human relationship can even be cute in the first place, because that implies some degree of normalcy. Given that the lovers are already of different species, and that the species have a predator-and-prey relationship, a normal relationship is clearly impossible. A good vampire-human couple should be dark, disturbing, wrong and frakked up on so many levels, and it should be treated as such.


YES! There should always be the very real possibility that one day the vampire will kill said lover purely by accident. Also, I've always disagreed with the somewhat new idea that male vampires are able to have sex. Physiologically, it just doesn't work out! Sure, there are a myriad of ways to get around that particular problem, but they all seem a little like cop outs to me, especially in books like Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake series.(A monstrosity of worse writing than Twilight in my opinion...it started out original and cool, and devolved. :x ) And the ending of any vampire-human romance should be heartbreaking and tragic, not happy and sparkly. Vampirism should never be used as a plot device for immortality and eternal youth and happiness.
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Also, I've always disagreed with the somewhat new idea that male vampires are able to have sex. Physiologically, it just doesn't work out!


And also there's the fact that no one intelligent would ever do that with a vampire.
That's what I never understood, because no matter how much you love the guy, it would be way too dangerous that the vampire might accidentally lose control and suck your blood. Bella didn't even worry about the fact that Edward might accidentally rip her apart.
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Bella didn't even worry about the fact that Edward might accidentally rip her apart.


That's because she's too busy being "dazzled" by him. And even if he did kill her, she'd probably be too entranced by his beauty and hotness to even care.

There should always be the very real possibility that one day the vampire will kill said lover purely by accident.


Yes, yes, this exactly. A vampire romance story just isn't complete without one of the couple dying at the end. Usually the human for being dumb enough to mess around with vampires in the first place, but it can go both ways. In the one I've got planned, the human kills the vampire at the end.

I don't agree entirely on the sex thing; it seems perfectly plausible for a male vampire to have sex, but not to get a girl pregnant (unless you stick to that one theory about Edward being impotent...). And I tend to lump incubi and succubi with vampires, mostly because I like playing on the sexual angle of vampires, but the great thing about vampires is how diverse they can be--individual writers can pick and choose from lore to give vampires their own spin. So I don't fault Smeyer for trying to be original. I do fault her for her exeuction, though. Original =/= sparkly emo Gary Stus.
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Sorry about the 'cute' thing. But yeah, you're all right; it ought to be either tragic, or get out. Vampires + Humans + Love = Nothing but Pain and Heartbreak. And Muffins.
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Hi!!! I'm Socks
So my sister, who's name will remain anonymous (wookielover17), told me that people on this forum live to bash twilight. Well I'm here to enlighten you. And try my hardest to bring meaning to your lives.

First of:
The primary reasons being the flat characters, unimaginative plot line, and drab writing style.


Flat characters: The characters in twilight are not flat, in fact they're the opposite of flat. If you begin with the character of Edward and tried to go beyond the whole-I love Bella I want to eat her thing- which most of you can't get by (he's a VAMPIRE, he eats PEOPLE, he's HUNGRY, he hasn't eaten a person in about 60 YEARS, she SMELLS GOOD AND TASTES GOOD. If you were in love with your cheeseburger wouldn't you want to eat it to0?!!?) he is a very intense and complicated character. His human side and his vampire side. His love and his hate. Bella is a character that grows and changes through out the series.

Unimaginative plot line: So yeah, the whole vampire falls in love with a human thing has been done before, but let me ask you this: How many sparkling vampire do you know?(nuff said)

Drab Writing Style: To this I have one thing to say. I started reading Harry Potter, got to chapter 3 and FELL ASLEEP!!!

For all Twilight haters: Why do you care?
Okay you read the book and you didn't like it. I am not forcing you to like it or read it or make it your way of life. But why must you constantly make fun, insult and criticize Twilight and the author? For people who claim to hate the very essence of Twilight you know an awful lot about it and bring it up more than any of us(and we live for this book). Insulting Stephanie Meyer is out of line. She is a good writer(have you read all her books or just twilight; don't judge unless you know enough to) and I can prove it. What book sold 3 million copies on the first 24 hours it was out? Twilight. What book was translated into 14 different languages because so many people wanted to read it? Twilight. What saga is being made into movies? Twilight, again. What movie sold over seven million tickets on premier weekend? Twilight.What book has become a way of life to practically every teenage girl(and some boys)? Twilight. (anyone notice a pattern here?) So if you want to be a successful writer or write an awesome vampire book. Read Twilight.

This is all I have to say for now. But I'll be back.

P.S. Twilight is very good and well written because my teacher ( who majored in literature) loves it and my mom (a college professor) has read each book 4 times.
P.P.S. Any question or comments are more than Welcome and you can also contact my best friend PinkStrippedSocks and she will be more than happy to help
P.P.P.S. For the one who hates the elephant!!! :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:
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...
OK...
Um, can I just ask a question, to everyone here, or at least, those people who defend Twilight to the death?
Would you still protect her if she wasn't famous for her books? If she was an unknown, and I ranted about how she wasn't a patch on Shan, would you care? Tell me this.

Practically the one reason anyone reads the book is because they like to fantasize about Edward (or Jacob. Or Carlisle :mrgreen:). And, if your mother reads it, Socks, that... doesn't really give me the right image. My mother, a university professor on English in the same university that the royal lineage goes to, couldn't really get past it; she prefers books that don't drag on like that.

Also, FWI, I have read the books, and I can honestly say, nobody changes. Sure, Bella becomes a mother and vampire, but even when she's a vampire, she's exactly the same as she was then.

Danny! :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:
This guy is so evil you could put him in between two slices of bread and call him an evil sandwich.

Coming at you like a jetpack Shakespeare.

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I've not read the book, and I'll just say that here. And I still stand by the fact that I would take Dracula over Twilight any day of the year. But to me, there are far more interesting or better books to spend your cash on to read than Twilight. I think that anyone who has to go to such lengths to defend or hate on the book is being ridiculous. I don't really care about it all, because there's always going to be that one series that is extraordinarily popular and is either loved or hated.

But with that said, to me, if a bunch of younger kids on here (Sorry guys; but I'm probably older than most of you. I'm not being snobbish) are saying that it's drab and unimaginative, then there's no reason that a 21 year old like me should have any motivation to read it. There are so many books and writers out there who aren't drab or catering to the mainstream whims in order to sell. Frankly, I was turned off before I could even gather my strength to ask what it was about. It looks dumb, it sounds dumb, and that's just my opinion. Vampire stories these days are not as good as they used to be.
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i have read all the books, once, then i tried it again, because i liked them the first time. But, when I read it again I realized what the problems were. To me bella didn't develop. She never changed in her emotions, and she always seemed unable to communicate herself.

Edward, well, i dont want to get started.

Jacob, hes an asshole, and if I was friends with bella, I would give him a talking to about giving bella some space.

the plot was ok the first time around, not too imaginative, but good for a quick read that can give you someperspective on writing, what to do, and what not to do.

I will not deny that the books are increddibly successful, but to me that is their undoing. Their success and the amound that teenage girls are obsessed with it makes me sad. Someone mentioned that almost half of the girls in the US live their life by this book. And thats wrong. The fact that every girl expects an edward to come and rescue them, makes me sick, especially because I realize that there are no edwards. Girls dont want to make exceptions, and when they do, they never really want it to last, because they know "edward" is out there somewhere.

Disagree if you want, but I find that wrong.

Albeit, it may be because Im deffinately not an edward, at least in appearance.
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...and trust me when I say that I hate it that those girls are stupid enough to live on a fantasy hope like that. It screws us normal guys over, because in their minds, we AREN'T Ed, and we could never live up to his dimensions...and I can't tell you how much that pisses me off.

not that that has anything to do with how well-written the book is...haha. Sorry, I just needed to get that one off my chest.
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Hi, Socks! I'm Lucinda.
I'm not trying to start up a debate, but I feel kind of like you went on the defensive here, so I'm going to try to explain things from my point of view, because I'm not just some crazy moronic hater who foams at the mouth at the mention of the book.

The characters in twilight are not flat, in fact they're the opposite of flat.[...]Bella is a character that grows and changes through out the series.


But you never say how she changes. All that I see is a clumsy, awkward, whiny, but apparently loved-by-all teenager (Mary-Sue alarms). By the end, yes, she's a vampire, so she's no longer clumsy, but she still does open Book Four by whining about how big and attractive her engagement ring is and how annoying it is that her fiance brought her the most gorgeous car ever. She should have at least realized by that point that she should try looking at things from other's perspectives and see the glass half-full. If you say she's grown, I'd like examples, please.
And as for Edward, yes, he does have the inner-conflict thing going, but does that stop him from dating her? Maybe for a little while, but he apparently has great control over his bloodlust. Basically, the only thing this guy has to stand for him is his good looks. Have you ever seen Bella raving about his great personality? Velvety voice maybe, but this guy is completely inconsistent, inner-being-wise. I mean, one moment, he can't stay away, the very next book, he's leaving her forever. Hmm.

So yeah, the whole vampire falls in love with a human thing has been done before, but let me ask you this: How many sparkling vampire do you know?(nuff said)


Making someone uber-sparkly isn't going to support a whole series and give it the *original* flair. You need to have *new* characters, not the same old hot-mysterious-vamp and innocent-but-clever-girl. You need to have a new plot, because "two people fall in love" isn't a plot unto itself. Just because the idea of making your supermanly male lead *sparkle* is too ludicrous for no one else to pick it up doesn't make it a good idea.

To this I have one thing to say. I started reading Harry Potter, got to chapter 3 and FELL ASLEEP!!!


1. Harry Potter isn't for everyone. It's a very apples-to-oranges comparison. The author kept the style plain so that it wouldn't get in the way of the story, so that no one could find something to hate in her style, because it was simple.
2. I don't recall anyone saying that Twilight was drab in style. However, the author made irritating mistakes in spelling, grammar, and especially word choice. Redundacies such as "He shuddered convulsingly" might up your word count, but it won't add to your story. It seems that Stephanie Meyer got out her thesaurus, and whenever she wanted to find a word more intelligent-sounding, she'd run to it in search for the most poetic, complex word she could find. This doesn't make for good writing, however, it does make for "telling, not showing" and purple prose.

For all Twilight haters: Why do you care?[...]So if you want to be a successful writer or write an awesome vampire book. Read Twilight.


Why do I care? Good question. Why do we care about anything we greatly like or dislike? I'm a person who will rant, as you might have noticed, about anything I feel passionate about. It so happens that I feel passionate about Twilight, on the "hate" end of the spectrum.
And just 'cause something is popular doesn't mean it's good. While I loved Harry Potter (by the way, J.K. Rowling has *still* made more money off of that than Stephanie Meyer), and you seemed to hate it, doesn't mean it wasn't popular. We're entitled to our opinions, not the opinion of the numbers that stand.
And that last piece of advice is pretty sound: people should read a little of everything, to get an idea of what's good and what's bad. For example, I learned that I shouldn't overuse words that sound pretty. You might have learned something, too, from reading Twilight. However, don't patronize writers for not liking it. Stephen King, a very popular horror writer, said that Stephanie Meyer "can't write worth a darn." Don't think that reading Twilight will equip you with the skills to write a blockbuster. 'Cause that just doesn't make sense.
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I'm a damsel...
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I can handle it.
Have a nice day.

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Socks-of-BLUE wrote:Hi!!! I'm Socks
So my sister, who's name will remain anonymous (wookielover17), told me that people on this forum live to bash twilight. Well I'm here to enlighten you. And try my hardest to bring meaning to your lives.


We do not live to bash Twilight. We live to write.


Flat characters: The characters in twilight are not flat, in fact they're the opposite of flat. If you begin with the character of Edward and tried to go beyond the whole-I love Bella I want to eat her thing- which most of you can't get by (he's a VAMPIRE, he eats PEOPLE, he's HUNGRY, he hasn't eaten a person in about 60 YEARS, she SMELLS GOOD AND TASTES GOOD. If you were in love with your cheeseburger wouldn't you want to eat it to0?!!?) he is a very intense and complicated character. His human side and his vampire side. His love and his hate. Bella is a character that grows and changes through out the series.


Exactly: Edward wants to chomp into her and drain her dry. Like you said, he hasn't had human in 60 years and Bella smells like really tasty meal. Did Mrs. Meyer play up this side of the drama? No. Beyond Edward's constant "I love you, but I'm dangerous" song-and-dance, nothing comes of his desire to kill and eat her, not even a weak moment where he nearly does so.

Unimaginative plot line: So yeah, the whole vampire falls in love with a human thing has been done before, but let me ask you this: How many sparkling vampire do you know?(nuff said)


Vampire falls in love with human = concept. NOT plot. As for the sparkling, that is far more in line with Daoine Sidhe and the True Fey than with vampires. Daoine Sidhe would sparkle to draw mortals to them. It's totally there MO. Vampires either seduce their prey with slow hypnotic eloquence, or they bash down the door and tear their prey to shreds. No sparkling needed.

Drab Writing Style: To this I have one thing to say. I started reading Harry Potter, got to chapter 3 and FELL ASLEEP!!!


So HP isn't your thing. That's fine, good for you, but what about it bored you?
Twilight isn't my thing. I don't want to listen to the whinging of a boring teenage girl whom I heartily dislike as a person, so I don't enjoy reading Twilight. I made it through about 15 pages, and then I realized I could not connect with Bella at all. To me, Washington is the most gorgeous state in the country...how could I relate to Bella at all? If I found a vampire creeping around in my room, I'd stake him, not gush at his feet about how beautiful he is. I can't get into Bella's head, which means I can't imbue her blank character with my own traits. That's why she seems so amazing: she is blank enough to let the reader project themselves into her story. It becomes like reading your own diary. But the framework that Bella has doesn't fit me, so I find it obnoxious.

For all Twilight haters: Why do you care?
Okay you read the book and you didn't like it. I am not forcing you to like it or read it or make it your way of life. But why must you constantly make fun, insult and criticize Twilight and the author? For people who claim to hate the very essence of Twilight you know an awful lot about it and bring it up more than any of us(and we live for this book). Insulting Stephanie Meyer is out of line. She is a good writer(have you read all her books or just twilight; don't judge unless you know enough to) and I can prove it. What book sold 3 million copies on the first 24 hours it was out? Twilight. What book was translated into 14 different languages because so many people wanted to read it? Twilight. What saga is being made into movies? Twilight, again. What movie sold over seven million tickets on premier weekend? Twilight.What book has become a way of life to practically every teenage girl(and some boys)? Twilight. (anyone notice a pattern here?) So if you want to be a successful writer or write an awesome vampire book. Read Twilight.


We discuss because we care about the state of current literature. It's what writers do when you put us in contact with each other.
Many sagas have been and are being made into movies recently: Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia, Harry Potter, Alice in Wonderland, The Lovely Bones, The Hobbit, My Sister's Keeper, and dozens of comic books ...the list goes on. The Twilight movies are acknowledged by critics and some Twifans alike as being very poorly made, and very poorly acted. They are a money maker, and nothing else.
Many books have been translated into 14 or more languages.
Harry Potter also premiered to millions of copies within the first 24 hours of sale.
Twilight's success is not unique.
Just because a book becomes vastly popular among a comparatively small demographic does not mean it's the be-all, end-all of literature. If we want to compare literary success, S. Meyer is easily trumped by many, many other (and far superior) authors, namely the brilliant Mr. Stephen King, who issued the statement that so enraged Twifans:

"Both Rowling and Meyer, they’re speaking directly to young people… The real difference is that Jo Rowling is a terrific writer and Stephenie Meyer can’t write worth a darn. She’s not very good...People are attracted by the stories, by the pace, and in the case of Stephenie Meyer, it’s very clear that she’s writing to a whole generation of girls and opening up kind of a safe joining of love and sex in those books. It’s exciting and it’s thrilling and it’s not particularly threatening because it’s not overtly sexual.”

Twifans accused Mr. King of being jealous of S. Meyer's success. Stephen King's list of books, comic books, movies made into books, movies made into TV series and et cetera are too numerous to count. Who should be jealous of who here? I side with Mr. King.

You tell us to read Twilight, so: Read East of Eden. Read Lord of the Rings. Read Dracula. Read IT. Read Pride and Prejudice. Read Shakespeare. You say don't judge until you know. You shouldn't judge Twilight to be great literature until you know what great literature truly is.


P.S. Twilight is very good and well written because my teacher (who majored in literature) loves it and my mom (a college professor) has read each book 4 times.


There are many other teachers who majored in literature and college professors who would disagree. Personal tastes don't mean the story is great literature. I loathe the play Death of a Salesman, but my theatre history professor loves it. A high school teacher of mine (who majored in literature as well) loathes the Chronicles of Narnia. I love them. Does her dislike of them mean that they are not good stories? No. Does my dislike of Death of a Salesman mean that it's not a pivotal American play? No. It just means I personally do not like it. Does my disliking Twilight mean you can't like it? No.

But how likely is it that Twilight will be accepted into the ranks of "Great Literature" and "Classic Stories"?
About as likely as Bella divorcing Edward.
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The one change that I think would have made the biggest impact on Twilight is if, in New Moon, it had been Edward who had lunged for Bella, not Jasper. I think that that one change would have made the entire series much better. It would have given Edward an actually believable reason to leave, and it would have made the whole fight-the-urge-to-kill-Bella thing a lot more real.
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magnusbanefan13 wrote:The one change that I think would have made the biggest impact on Twilight is if, in New Moon, it had been Edward who had lunged for Bella, not Jasper. I think that that one change would have made the entire series much better. It would have given Edward an actually believable reason to leave, and it would have made the whole fight-the-urge-to-kill-Bella thing a lot more real.


That actually makes so much more sense. xD One wonders why Meyer didn't do it in the first place.

Also, speaking of bad stories, has anyone read Swordbird? It was written by a twelve year old girl, and I think that's the only reason it became a New York Times best seller. I recommend you read it: it's good for some laughs. XD
The history of the world
My pet
Is learn forgiveness
And try to forget!

-Sweeney Todd

I'm a damsel...
I'm in distress...
I can handle it.
Have a nice day.

-Hercules

Masquerade!
Paper faces on parade
Masquerade
Hide your face so the world can never find you.

-The Phantom of the Opera



The only proper way of drinking Capri-Sun is from your great-grandmother's gold-plated cups reserved for special occasions.
— NovemberCrow