Young Writers Society

From Kim's story, which you can read here!

Feel free to join in.

aeroman wrote:

Snoink wrote:Actually, I have to disagree with aeroman, for the first paragraph anyway. I think that, too often writers don't put any scenery in at all, just because they want action all the time, but I like scenery. He loves it... so why can't the author describe it? A character is deep, not because of how many horrible things have happened to him, but rather because, no matter what has happened to him, he can still love. So it ends up being beneficial for him loving something.

So I would keep the first paragraph. It's probably not aeroman's cup of tea, but it isn't bad.

Just my two cents.

Scenery has its purpose, Snoink. But scenery does not define character and understanding the character's love for autumn I don't believe was the purpose of this story and certainly didn't add to it, at least in my opinion.

As Henry James states, "What is character but the determination of incident? And what is incident but the illumination of character?" In laymans terms: events in a story are specifically designed to bring out the truth about the characters so that we, the audience can transcend our ordinary lives and achieve a connection between the character and ourselves.

The first chapter of any novel is crucial to hooking the reader and gaining this connection through events. My cup of tea is that anything in that first chapter that is not making this happen should be tossed out.

For example: my story may be about a murder and in the first chapter my protagonist discovers the murder. My protagonist also loves winter. Am I going to tell how my protagonist loves winter and establish a happy tone in the first paragraph and then go to him coming home in the next paragraph and finding his wife dead, straight to a negative and mysterious tone? No. It's not logical, at least to me. It's not helping establish that connection at all. It's not my 'cup of tea.'

Anyway, that's just me.

Actually, I think it would be slightly cool if you went from loving winter into your story. Just look at the drastic shift of emotions! And then the reader can compare the initial joy with the pain that comes next, and it can be really deep if written correctly. I mean, you might say, "Oh, that's pointless!" but I would disagree with that.

You said, "In laymans terms: events in a story are specifically designed to bring out the truth about the characters so that we, the audience can transcend our ordinary lives and achieve a connection between the character and ourselves." But weather is not an event -- it's a detail. If an event is something to bring out the truth in our characters, then details are a way of connecting with the reader into terms they understand. Because not everyone can understand fully the event. Not everyone of your readers will understand the feeling of coming home and finding their spouse murdered. They can guess and guess well, but they wouldn't truly know. Details are just a way to relate more closely to the reader, and the more concrete the detail, the better response you'll get.

So is weather a necessary detail?

I think so. Weather is too often overlooked, especially in this day and age, where all of us are safe inside. (Weather is completely overlooked in fantasy... it's quite sad.) But even in this day and age, weather can affect our lives in quite drastic ways. Besides the obvious examples of frostbite, it can also affect our moods and the way we work at life. In the San Francisco Bay Area, which is where I live, in winter there is no white magic. Instead, the sky is just painted gray with a dreary fog. And everyone pretty much hates it and, because they hate it, it can affect their mood.

Many people understand the weather and how it affects, directly or indirectly, their lives. So, because the level of understanding of the weather, and the feelings associated with it, are so universal, then your reader will more than likely understand what it means and enjoy the description.

If you write it right.

Scenery is obviously a detail and not an event. But I don't think you understood me when I said event, or maybe I just need to clarify. When I say event, I mean the whole thing. A whole is made up of parts. Scenery is part of that whole. What parts of the event the writer tells us is there business. But whatever they tell us, it should be adding to the whole and not detracting from it. In this case scenery. As you said, weather is a universal theme that most people ignore. I think weather is a wonderful detail to use. Any detail is great as long as it is used effectively to further that connection between the reader and the character.

Again, I agree with everything you're saying. I was not attempting to argue that scenery is pointless. I was arguing that in certain situations, it can be a needless detail that detracts from the story but anything can be that. And I believe this was the case in Kim's story, based on how Kim wrote it. I believe that the autumn detail was detracting and needless. At least in my opinion.

So in effect, we're both arguing the same point, interestingly enough. Except for the disagreement over Kim's story, haha.

Weather, I think, is only important if it plays a vital part in the story mood, or impacts the characters in some way, or has to do directly with the story.

I say, keep what you only need- no unnecessary details, unless you're just a fantasy writer loving to elaborate it.

Does weather really matter? is what i mean to say.

As with everything, there is a point at which description of detail - in this case, weather - can become too much, but I agree with Snoink that it is a powerful detail too often ignored.

Weather affects circumstances and affects characters, a handy tool for accenting personality. Weather often sets a mood which events may complement or contrast. Details help make a story real. True, sometimes authors can get carried away in describing the weather, but tis a valuable tool if used in moderation. ^_^

I say, keep what you only need- no unnecessary details, unless you're just a fantasy writer loving to elaborate it.

Pardon me if I'm interpreting that wrong, but I don't see how being categorized as a fantasy writer eliminates the need for a balance of detail.

Toodles. ^_^

Nope, just that usually fantasy writers have to elaborate a bit more than others, because what's coming from their imaginations usually demands more "little things"; the details are very important.

I'm sorry if that came out wrong.

Well...I guess "does it detract from the story in any way"? could also be a question you could ask yourself.