Question about fantasy cliches.

I am planning a fantasy story, and I would like to know if some of the following items would be consider... "deadly" cliches, if you will.

Dwarves living in mountains and being good miners. I mean, it seems fitting with their general appearance. If that is alright, what are something things I shouldn't do with my dwarves?

The same with Elves; is saying that they live in forests, grow really old, and quick/agile really bad? I mean, I probably wouldn't make them as perfect/smart as they are in other stories.

Having an animal partner? Because I am using a mysterious penguin (Something to make you laugh: I thought this up AFTER I made my username ), as long as not making like a really smart mentor (Like in Eragon) would it work?

That is all I could think up so far... I really appreciate anyone who replies, and even more if they give some more tips to avoid in writing fantasy.

~EP

Quick note, if you have to question if it's cliche, it probably is The important thing is to take an old idea and twist it to make it yours. Nothing wrong with having dwarves in caves that mine, but what else can you say about dwarves? What makes your dwarves and different from any other authors take one them?

As for the animal companion you speak of, I would really have to see that in context. A penguin buddy sounds a bit off, but I don't know your plot/characters/setting so I couldn't really rell you.

Rosey Unicorn wrote:Strange is always good. My character's animal partner is a squirrel that can shape-shift into a race I half made up (He shifts into a Salamander, or fire Elemental. They are known in mythology, just not very much)

One thing you could do is try something besides Norse mythology. It has been used over and over again since Tolkien, and there is a world of mythology out there. Or, use some of the stranger things in Norse mythology. Like dark elves or frost giants (I could be wrong about the giants, but I've never seen them). As a good base I would recommend looking at The Writer's Compete Fantasy Reference by Writer's Digest books. It has quite a few races, how they have been used in non-cliched ways (Warning: Those are just ideas. If you use them you might get nailed for being cliche) and a bunch of creatures/races from around the world.

I think I'll get The Complete Guide to Writing Fantasy and see what they have. It's a three volume set, so there has to be some good stuff in there.

Thanks for both of your ideas! I'll see to look into other mythologies.

And I believe the Frost Giants are comparable to trolls.

Meh, anything's alright so long as you mix it up and make it your own. If you use elves or dwarves, just make them different. Or you could make up your own creatures and things.

And I suppose a penguin partner would work. I can't see why not, at least.

Dwarves living in mountains and being good miners. I mean, it seems fitting with their general appearance. If that is alright, what are something things I shouldn't do with my dwarves?

The fact that there're dwarves in your story is already cliché. Just create your own race. Be imaginative.

The same with Elves; is saying that they live in forests, grow really old, and quick/agile really bad? I mean, I probably wouldn't make them as perfect/smart as they are in other stories.

The same as above. Get rid of them. No fantasy writer after Tolkien (who made the elves we know have), has become successful. With the evil exception of Paolini, who does not deserve it.

Blink wrote:

Dwarves living in mountains and being good miners. I mean, it seems fitting with their general appearance. If that is alright, what are something things I shouldn't do with my dwarves?

The fact that there're dwarves in your story is already cliché. Just create your own race. Be imaginative.

The same with Elves; is saying that they live in forests, grow really old, and quick/agile really bad? I mean, I probably wouldn't make them as perfect/smart as they are in other stories.

The same as above. Get rid of them. No fantasy writer after Tolkien (who made the elves we know have), has become successful. With the evil exception of Paolini, who does not deserve it.

Mmm... that sounds interesting.

I'll try that! Thanks for the advice.

Elves and Dwarves ... the ultimate question of fantasy. Yes or no?

Well, i'm going to be annoying and say that you can use them, but I'd recommend thinking up something different for them. What I'd do is forget every book you've ever read that used them, just for a moment, and do some research into the actual mythology regarding them. Then remember what everyone else did.

The real problem with cliches isn't that they're not original (in my, rather non-expert, opinion). I think the real issues lie in that they trick whoever's writing about them to put no more thought into them than what they got out of the last book. You know, elves, tall, good with nature, live in trees, pointy ears. DONE. As oppose to thinking about things properly, thinking about elven society and the function of individual elves within it. OK, I don't know how much sense that made. I'll come clean with that now. I was just stringing words together to try and illustrate my point. I should probably say that I don't know what exactly you'd have to think about in order to have thought about the problem of elves properly. But thinking has to take place. Yes? Shall we just move on from this paragraph and never speak of it again? I think so. Moving on ...

... so ... elves and dwarves eh?

Ok, so. Treat the individual characters like people and not like elven/dwarven stereotypes and that's a good start. Putting a few differences into the actual race itself is the next step of avoiding-cliches. Posibly the third step is just to create a whole new race yourself, however that's much easier to stuff up than you would expect. People (in my, yet again rather non-expert opinion) tend to over do it and make things too werid and different and it just doesn't convince me all that often. That's not to say failure is guranteed. It's just, in reality, about as straightforward as avoiding cliches. That is to say, not very straightforward at all.

... oh no, wait ... Not that I'm encouraging you to just do what everyone else does. I think I may have come over all wrong. What am I saying? Ok, I think I'm saying that a few good twists in the right places coupled with good characterisation and a non-shallow approach to fantasy race-making ... and you should be ok. Simple, no?

EDIT:

Oh yeah, the penguin sounds pretty cool. As long as it's not completely random. That is, I hope this story is set somewhere where penguins are not completely alien. Although maybe that could be the point. People wouldn't have a clue what it was and might assume it was ... magic. Or something. Extra mysterious at anyrate.

Thanks Elel, I believe you do have a point with the race making.

Mmm... all kind of challenging =P Maybe I'll use Dwarves and Elves, but like you said, look more into their history and create different types (ie. Ice Dwarves, Night Elves)

Thanks for all the replies I've gotten. I really enjoy this forum

Blink wrote:

Dwarves living in mountains and being good miners. I mean, it seems fitting with their general appearance. If that is alright, what are something things I shouldn't do with my dwarves?

The fact that there're dwarves in your story is already cliché. Just create your own race. Be imaginative.

The same with Elves; is saying that they live in forests, grow really old, and quick/agile really bad? I mean, I probably wouldn't make them as perfect/smart as they are in other stories.

The same as above. Get rid of them. No fantasy writer after Tolkien (who made the elves we know have), has become successful. With the evil exception of Paolini, who does not deserve it.

Er, I rather have to disagree with you. There have been several, the most notable of whom is Raymond.e.Feist - one of the most renowned fantasy writers of our time. (Although I enjoyed all the books following Magician, they've become rather formulaic now. With the exception of Daughter of the Empire, Servant of the Empire and Mistress of the Empire - a trilogy he co-wrote with Janny Wurts, which is one of the best series of fantasy novels ever written.)

Just avoid becoming like Paolini - don't bastardize original ideas, creatures; use your own. Unless you have something generally unique and different to add to preconceived notions and ideas.

*Sigh* Great. more people who hate Paolini (I love him). At least you have a reason, not just that's it's nerdy.....

If I remember correctly...... *Runs off to get Writer's Complete Fantasy Reference* Ah yes, Diskworld uses dwarves, mostly to make fun of the cliches. And Witch World uses elves but with a twist.

So it boils down to the same principle- you can use them, but make them your own.

It might help to google Fantasy Cliche(s) and read some of the lists that Will pop up. I've linked two lists and one meeter on an earlier thread.

*Edit*

With the exception of Daughter of the Empire, Servant of the Empire and Mistress of the Empire - a trilogy he co-wrote with Janny Wurts, which is one of the best series of fantasy novels ever written.

Those sound really good. Do you have a review of them posted?