Followers of Christ

Followers of Christ

A club for Christian conversation, fellowship, prayer, learning, sharing, and support.

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  • Created Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:46 pm

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  • EveryUsernameTaken
    EveryUsernameTaken · Jul 17
    Spoiler
    I read a comment which said "If God's love is unconditional why is salvation conditional?" meaning one man had to die for us to be saved.

    I read through the thread. The person's other point was "Since God loves everyone as you say, why isn't everyone saved if he loves them so much? Is sending people to hell unconditional love?" clearly no.

    The Christian's reply was "gods love is unconditional but he does not violate your free will"

    I see many problems with this answer, first off he's God, if he's gonna save me from hell to bring me to salvation, I DON'T CARE IF HE VIOLATES MY FREE WILL, HE'S GOD! Please change my heart, that's my prayer honestly. But this doesn't answer the question.

    So, I find the best to way answer these questions is to use the bible. Let's see the context of these verses.

    Romans 8:35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"

    However interestingly enough Romans speaking to the believers! Not the world! We're almost answering this question now since we know God's unconditional love is only to his people who has saved and elected, what about that condition? Isn't it just more proof of that unconditional love? Specially if we believe that "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Ephesians 1:4)

    So then, what of the world? Do they have this unconditional love? Clearly no. Only those God has chosen are in his unconditional love and he shows he would do anything for them to be with him in glory forever amen!

    Does this answer that question? I'm sure but now we know God does not send his beloved to the grave but gives them new life!

    Does that mean God hates? Let's see what the bible says.

    "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Paul goes on to explain: "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Romans 9:13-18

    alliyah replied · Jul 17

    spoilered for length -

    Spoiler
    Lots to think about here, you've pulled some really good/vital scripture passages to respond to folks with and for further study. This is a hard thing for our human hearts to accept; that God has chosen some for salvation and that this means some may not be saved...

    Romans 3 helps on this too, in addition to the Romans passages you've already highlighted. If we got what we deserved, all would die, for all have fallen short of the glory of God. But instead, God has chosen mercy for those He has chosen - for those whom God has willed to have faith, we will be saved, not by any work of our own; but through faith alone! ~

    Romans 3:21-26 "21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

    I think I line up with your views on this topic! God's mercy / love are far beyond our human comprehension to completely uncover, as humans ultimately we don't choose who is saved and who is not - but we know none are worthy, and trust in God's mercy that those believe and confess in Jesus Christ will be saved as scripture tells us. So therefore, let us hear, believe, and share God's gospel! <3


    TheMythMaster replied · Jul 17

    As far as the part about free will... I get your feelings exactly, God is God and he could totally make us change our heart, and love him and be perfect---but it wouldn't be real love. It would be like if I programmed a robot to be my friend, I would never be satisfied with its friendship because I know its just doing what I programmed. If we don't choose with free will to love Him, we're not really loving him, and He wishes for our real love.


    EveryUsernameTaken replied · Jul 25

    Spoiler
    We cannot love God, in our natural man we are rebellious and want to be our own God. So if God would let us choose by our free will we would reject him every time because no one wants to be under a higher being, they want to be their own God. Having to rely and realize you can nothing without that higher being is a death to the natural man's huge ego.

    "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:6) "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26) "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." (John 15:5) "even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John 14:17)


    alliyah replied · Jul 17

    Spoiler
    Not all Christians necessarily believe in free will Myth ~ especially in terms of our salvation. Personally, I believe I choose / don't choose many things during the day within my "free" will that are important, but I do not ultimately choose Christ, rather Christ has chosen me, and my faith latches on to this choice God has made for me in love. Jesus talks about this in John 15:16... "You did not choose me, I chose you". I love then not out of my goodness, but in obedience to God's Spirit living in me... Which sometimes very often I fail at! (Romans 7... Paul too identifies this struggle)

    Maybe in some sense having this faith and grace of God, now I have the chance to abide in it and live it out in love... But nothing I do or do not do will change the fate of my salvation which is sealed in the Water and Word of Jesus Christ. I am not saved because I have finally figured out how to love God perfectly (I haven't!) but rather because God loves me perfectly and has chosen me.

    That's my Lutheran perspective! Others may interpret differently!



'Hush, hush!' I whispered; 'people can have many cousins and of all sorts, Miss Cathy, without being any the worse for it; only they needn't keep their company, if they be disagreeable and bad.
— Emily Bronte, Wuthering Heights