Amber Spyglass

Ah thankyou all for pointing out some oversights on my part.

When I'm talking about Dust not being/symbollising god I'm refferring strictly to the god of abrahamic scripture. I think the sequence in the afterlife/world and the second-death of characters like Scoresby (becoming a part of the infinite universe), which is tied to the Subtle Knife itself and dust etc represents that there is a greater mysticism refferred to in Pullman's books. THerefore I won't refute any links between Dust and 'the Divine' because that kind of mysticism is so ill-defined that it is almost impossible to refute.

I'd also say this is why I'd agree with the idea of Pullman's attack being on totalitarianism as a whole rather than religion and mysticism per se. However despite the validity of the idea that symbollism cannot be translated directly out of fiction, I would have to say that the Authority itself is inextricabely linked with Christianity. The use of characters such as Metatron, the other angels, and witches for that matter all underline this link.

I think that's all,

Cheerio,
Rubric

Rubric wrote:Dust is not God, and even though the fallen angel isn't omnipotent, that's the whole point.

Rubric wrote:Pullman isn't strictly pro-atheist, his attack on Asriel's 'Republic of Heaven', saying how it will fail etc, is an attack on the unrealistic ideals held by some atheists, who refuse to ground themselves in the real world.

Conducting a purely religious reading of His Dark Materials is rather superficial. The religious aspect is merely a plot device that (if anything) serves to criticise a more fundamental social aspect.

What I extracted from the books wasn't that Pullman was trying to bash the notion of a monolithic religious structure, but rather point out that things cannot be regarded at face value. At times, the novel actually takes a religiously sympathetic tone I think.

More accurately, I'd describe Pullman's novels as an attack on totalitarianism in general. Remember that he is writing within several fictional worlds and Christianity isn't the only monolithic deity religion. Unless my memory fails me entirely, nowhere in the series does it directly say that the Authority is Christian^1. In fact, the very act of naming the deity figure as the 'Authority' supports the idea that the books conduct a more general criticism of totalitarianism rather than Christianity specifically.

I think that Pullman writes with an incredible amount of wit. HDM appears to make certain social criticisms, but the worlds in which the story is set are entirely fictional. Don't you think that his very assertion of aiming to write stark reality within the Fantasy genre exudes irony? HDM is not cast in black and white, thus such a reading shouldn't be made of it.

Perhaps that is where the root of its criticism lies, so critiques by those such as Hitchens actually support Pullman's apparent argument, merely by making such stark comparisons to C.S Lewis.

^1 - Alright, so it is heavily implied, but realize that many 'different' major world religions share similar creationist theories.

(Eep, ever so sorry, but my browser submitted this post prematurely!)

A Christian is by definition "a little Christ." Christ was all about love and forgiveness and saving grace. So I will openly, outright challenge anyone like Hitler who claims to be a Christian.

That said, I'm totally okay with Pullman bashing God because that's his belief and my God is perfectly capable of defending himself. I've only read the Golden Compass and part of the Subtle Knife. I liked them, they were really original, although the fallen angels creeped me out lol. I agree Kepe in that I enjoyed his church-bashing lol. His God-bashing was a little offensive to me just because it was preachy, but atheism-preachy, which is almost an oxymoron I think. Anyway, I don't like books that preach. I like books with symbolism that make you think, but I hate authors, Christian or non-Christian, who scream at you what to believe. Still, I think Pullman makes very good points in his books which Christians should be ready to defend.

I need to finish that series so I can really discuss these books lol.

Okay, this tangent has gone far enough. If you want to continue this debate, I've started a thread in the Debate Group forum.

Link

kids im not sure if this has been moved to the debate forum yet but im posting my two cents anway.

Hitler was not a christian, he used god as a way of winning overthe Catholic political party, and of pushing his hatred of jews (by saying that jews killed jesus). His statesments over a belief in god etc were to calm down the religious populace that were angry over him betraying the Concordat with the church, and taking control of Catholic Schools into the hands of the state

AS for that crap about christians not starting any wars, have a look at the Albigensian (sp.?) crusade. THat'd be the thing that turned me off christianity forever. And christians broke about 2 dozen truces in the holy land, and were a hell of a lot more treacherous than the muslims. The point about the conquistadors in america should probably me shown as well.

*SPOILER*
Pullman isn't strictly pro-atheist, his attack on Asriel's 'Republic of Heaven', saying how it will fail etc, is an attack on the unrealistic ideals held by some atheists, who refuse to ground themselves in the real world.

Dust is not God, and even though the fallen angel isn't omnipotent, that's the whole point. The book is written under the assumption that religion is founded on a lie, and exists only to enforce it's own teaching. If you look over the whole underworld thing, you see that Pullman is saying that belief in higher powers of a religious sort is wasted - the priest who believes the really crappy underworld is actually heaven.

Metatron's usurpation of God's authority represents the misdirection of original religios ideas. If you disagree, let's rumble.


Cheerio,
Rubric

I would like to say that I wasn't trying to say that Hitler was an atheist, only that if Hitler had won it would have pointed the world in a very atheistic direction, and that his mass murders stemmed from atheistic concepts. The whole Aryan race thing developed because they seemed to think that Aryan people were more 'evolved' than other people, and that therefore they were doing society a favor by killing off an inferior race. This concept came from Darwin and Nietzsche and Nietzsche said, "God is dead" which would lead a person to assume that he was an atheist, or at least an agnostic. I really hate to correct you, but Christianity has never started any confilcts, neither has atheism, however communistic (godless) regimes have killed far more than most wars which is a direct result from the atheisticness. Of course, that last point is somewhat up for debate, however I think there are a lot of things to support that point.

This is off topic, but I can't help but reply. Have you ever heard of the Crusades? or the Spanish Inquisition?

Christianity and atheism do not start wars. Christians and atheists start wars. Christians and atheists also do volunteer work and help people.

(We ought to move this tangent of the discussion to the debate forum, where it is much better suited.)

Well this wasn't quite fair of me, but I kinda made that into a trick statement. Crusades were not started (key word) by the Christians it was after the Muslims invaded that the crusades truly began, so yeah. That was really mean of me. Spanish Inquisition was not a war, and it was very controversial among many other Christians, and I hate to say it but most people consider Christianity to be different than Catholicism. The main point of that whole speech, however, was that Christianity hasn't began any conflicts because it is people not following Christianity who do wrong things not Christianity itself. I knew everyone was going to jump all over that statement, so I worded it in a tricky way.


I'd like to know where you got your facts.

Stalin killed an estimated 43,000,000. That is more than most wars throughout history.

And yes, this is off topic. Sorry. I will not post anymore off topic!

I really hate to correct you, but Christianity has never started any confilcts, neither has atheism, however communistic (godless) regimes have killed far more than most wars which is a direct result from the atheisticness.

Kepe wrote:I really hate to correct you, but Christianity has never started any confilcts, neither has atheism, however communistic (godless) regimes have killed far more than most wars which is a direct result from the atheisticness.

I read these books way before they were made into movies, and I have to agree. They are AMAZING. I myself am an avid Harry Potter fan, however His Dark Materials has so much more action, and adventure, and some serious plot twists. It never occurred to me at the time that it might be about atheism. I completely recommend them.

I would like to say that I wasn't trying to say that Hitler was an atheist, only that if Hitler had won it would have pointed the world in a very atheistic direction, and that his mass murders stemmed from atheistic concepts. The whole Aryan race thing developed because they seemed to think that Aryan people were more 'evolved' than other people, and that therefore they were doing society a favor by killing off an inferior race. This concept came from Darwin and Nietzsche and Nietzsche said, "God is dead" which would lead a person to assume that he was an atheist, or at least an agnostic. I really hate to correct you, but Christianity has never started any confilcts, neither has atheism, however communistic (godless) regimes have killed far more than most wars which is a direct result from the atheisticness. Of course, that last point is somewhat up for debate, however I think there are a lot of things to support that point.

Meep, I totally agree with your point about not reading it because a particular author is not a Christian or whatever. I have a couple of friends who are, well, 'sheltered' and they tend to hold that point. I try to tell them that you can still enjoy a well written piece of literature without believing every word it says, but they still won't listen.

I'd like to point you all in the direction of Killing the Imposter God, a book about the theology of His Dark Materials. It argues that the Authority is not God, and in their interpretation, Dust is the truey divine Thing, whatever you'd like to call it.

Also, the author's personal religious politics are hardly a reason not to read a book. It's like saying "oh, I don't like The Chronicles of Narnia because CS Lewis was Christian and the stories have lots of Christian themes."

Just because Hitler 'wasn't a Christian' as you say, that doesn't mean he was an atheist and that doesn't mean that atheism influenced him to do anything. Christianity has start a lot more wars that atheism has.

Anyways, I'm reading the Amber Spyglass right now, and it's actually very good. The God they are talking about isn't REALLY God, but someone who decided that he was God. The book isn't about defeated God, it's about defeating someone who is imitating God, so I don't understand why people seem to think it's so horrible.

Actually he wasn't. You know the saying that actions speak louder than words? This would be a prime example. He did not practice Christianity, therefore he is not a Christian. He may have tried to justify his causes using 'God' as his justification, however I believe it would be completely fair to say that he fails miserably. His actions as a leader stemmed from the teachings Friedrich Nietzsche (atheist), Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party ( which overtly supported the occult Guido-von-List-Society), and superstitious French writer Edouard Drumon. In fact Karl Lueger is probably the most responsible for implementing the anti semetism which infected Hitler. To be perfectly fair, however, my research tells me that there were a lot of German 'Churches' who tried to meld the teachings of Nietzsche and the Bible (which did not work) and so some of the German misconcepts on Christianity may have stemmed from corrupt 'Churches'.
Even believing in God does not make one a Christian for certainly Satan himself believes in God, but he is defiantly not a Christian! I am not saying that Hitler was an atheist, however his regime was set up to fulfill the day dreams of a potently evil atheist.

and sorry for starting the tangent.

I'm sorry to go off on a complete tangent, but Hitler was a Christian, and very sure in his beliefs. Just see here and here.

Well I have very mixed feeling about the trilogy. I loved some of his original concepts (daemons, aleitheometer etc) however as a Christian I naturally disagreed with all of his points. I originally read them in 6th grade over the summer for fun, I really didn't grasp what he was trying to say (the whole anti-God original sin thing) and just read the story, but I recently re-read them for the movie that just came out. W-O-W I was so surprised, it was nothing like I remembered. Phillip Pullman is a good writer, he can keep you engaged etc, however I think he fails in his attempt to kill God. Basically "God" is this powerless fallen angel who just floats away, which is nothing like the real God. The real God has more similarities to dust (though I would never pretend it is a perfect match) than anything, and the Magestirium has more similarities to communist regimes than the Church. I love how Phillip Pullman shows all the bad things that the Church has done (mistakes which are a result of not doing what God says ironically) but never any of the good, and how he glorifies atheism without showing all the bad atheism has accomplished. People trying to make the world Atheistic has killed more people than any religion. Think Hitler (though there is some evidence that he practiced witchcraft) tried to set up a 'perfect' world without a God, Stalin, and basically any other communist regime. Phillip Pullman said in the series that Christianity is nothing but a convincing lie, however I would suggest that his series is nothing more than a convincing lie. I think everyone should read these books, even Christians, to either enjoy his story or to see the fallacies of his thinking.

His Dark Materials are some of the best books I've ever read simply for the emotions they evoked from me while reading. I talked about this with my sister over Christmas -- I said that through all the other books I've ever read, I'm still not sure books have touched me in the same way Pullman's have. No other book has made me cry (at the ending). I'll never forget them; they were an integral part of my childhood. And I remember them with great fondness.

Kang227 wrote:Although I disagree that these are considered children's books. You don't call Jurassic Park a children's book just because it has dinosaurs in it, and you don't call His Dark Materials a children's book just because the protagonist is a child. The two don't walk hand in hand.

I dunno, why would they make a book out of Eragon? The book's terrible, and the movie made me feel physically ill. And yet, they made money on it.

Which is not to degrade Pullman's work. I am Christian. I've read the books. I'm rather offended at the heavy-handed anti-god of the series, but I can still appreciate the story as FICTION.

Although I disagree that these are considered children's books. You don't call Jurassic Park a children's book just because it has dinosaurs in it, and you don't call His Dark Materials a children's book just because the protagonist is a child. The two don't walk hand in hand.

I love the books - and people do seem to be reading them - I mean, why would there be a movie based upon the first book if people didn't?

Pullman has been described as the anti- CS Lewis and to be honest I have to agree. The only reason I wouldn't call him a better author is because he's written for our time.

Yes, Pullman bashes the church, but the entire trilogy is intended for that purpose, albeit that rant by Serafina was a little obtuse (if in character).. personally I think his writing style is great, his symbollism and characterisation are wonderful, and his plots are layered so that people can enjoy them on a variety of levels.

He is the best children's author I have ever read, without a doubt.

Rubric

Golden compass was pretty good, but about 20/30 pages into The Subtle Knife, the one witch really started bashing the Catholic Church. Instant turn-off. Put it down and haven't picked it up since. It is a great series with a lot of potential, but as the author himself has stated: It is an anti-Narnia, a direct rebuttal of the Christian Faith.
So much talent, put to such ill-concieved purposes...

I love The Golden Compass! It's so brilliant, the universe, the characters, everything. I'm planning tho read the rest of the trilogy soon.

I can't agree, I've read far better fantasies an after reading action scenes with "and" non stop. It gets tedious. I like first one, but Subtle Knife action scenes ruined it for me. I enjoyed it before that and until I read such terrible action scenes. It's like he rushed it all. My favorite fantasy writer Ian Irvine I recommend if you want to read an amazing author try him. I'll plough through it some time. Though not looking forwards too it :s.

I agree.
I first finished the series in grade 4, but I have re-read them many times. Instead of getting more dull, they seem to be more captivating each time I go back to them!
And yes, they are much better [in my opinion] than LOTR and HP. I mean, the setting s and imagery were vivid and inspiring, the characters incredibly well-developed. My favourite ideas of his were the Daemons and the Subtle Knife/other worlds.
So if anyone hasn't read them, read them now or I'll come after you with a Butcher knife!
Just kidding, but you really should!