Young Writers Society

I would like to say that I wasn't trying to say that Hitler was an atheist, only that if Hitler had won it would have pointed the world in a very atheistic direction, and that his mass murders stemmed from atheistic concepts. The whole Aryan race thing developed because they seemed to think that Aryan people were more 'evolved' than other people, and that therefore they were doing society a favor by killing off an inferior race. This concept came from Darwin and Nietzsche and Nietzsche said, "God is dead" which would lead a person to assume that he was an atheist, or at least an agnostic. I really hate to correct you, but Christianity has never started any confilcts, neither has atheism, however communistic (godless) regimes have killed far more than most wars which is a direct result from the atheisticness. Of course, that last point is somewhat up for debate, however I think there are a lot of things to support that point.

Meep, I totally agree with your point about not reading it because a particular author is not a Christian or whatever. I have a couple of friends who are, well, 'sheltered' and they tend to hold that point. I try to tell them that you can still enjoy a well written piece of literature without believing every word it says, but they still won't listen.

I read these books way before they were made into movies, and I have to agree. They are AMAZING. I myself am an avid Harry Potter fan, however His Dark Materials has so much more action, and adventure, and some serious plot twists. It never occurred to me at the time that it might be about atheism. I completely recommend them.

Kepe wrote:I really hate to correct you, but Christianity has never started any confilcts, neither has atheism, however communistic (godless) regimes have killed far more than most wars which is a direct result from the atheisticness.

This is off topic, but I can't help but reply. Have you ever heard of the Crusades? or the Spanish Inquisition?

Christianity and atheism do not start wars. Christians and atheists start wars. Christians and atheists also do volunteer work and help people.

(We ought to move this tangent of the discussion to the debate forum, where it is much better suited.)

I really hate to correct you, but Christianity has never started any confilcts, neither has atheism, however communistic (godless) regimes have killed far more than most wars which is a direct result from the atheisticness.

I'd like to know where you got your facts.

I agree, this religion argument belongs in the debate forum.

This is off topic, but I can't help but reply. Have you ever heard of the Crusades? or the Spanish Inquisition?

Christianity and atheism do not start wars. Christians and atheists start wars. Christians and atheists also do volunteer work and help people.

(We ought to move this tangent of the discussion to the debate forum, where it is much better suited.)

Well this wasn't quite fair of me, but I kinda made that into a trick statement. Crusades were not started (key word) by the Christians it was after the Muslims invaded that the crusades truly began, so yeah. That was really mean of me. Spanish Inquisition was not a war, and it was very controversial among many other Christians, and I hate to say it but most people consider Christianity to be different than Catholicism. The main point of that whole speech, however, was that Christianity hasn't began any conflicts because it is people not following Christianity who do wrong things not Christianity itself. I knew everyone was going to jump all over that statement, so I worded it in a tricky way.


I'd like to know where you got your facts.

Stalin killed an estimated 43,000,000. That is more than most wars throughout history.

And yes, this is off topic. Sorry. I will not post anymore off topic!

I would like to say that I wasn't trying to say that Hitler was an atheist, only that if Hitler had won it would have pointed the world in a very atheistic direction, and that his mass murders stemmed from atheistic concepts. The whole Aryan race thing developed because they seemed to think that Aryan people were more 'evolved' than other people, and that therefore they were doing society a favor by killing off an inferior race. This concept came from Darwin and Nietzsche and Nietzsche said, "God is dead" which would lead a person to assume that he was an atheist, or at least an agnostic. I really hate to correct you, but Christianity has never started any confilcts, neither has atheism, however communistic (godless) regimes have killed far more than most wars which is a direct result from the atheisticness. Of course, that last point is somewhat up for debate, however I think there are a lot of things to support that point.

Yeah, I know this is off topic, but pretty much everything you've brought up in this is simply incorrect (Hitler was inspired by Christianity, not evolution or Atheist principles; there's no reason to presume that if Hitler won the war the world would have become more Atheistic; although Communism is Atheistic, the killing wasn't inspired by this). But yeah, let's not take up any more space here. If you're a member of the Debate forum, we could discuss this subject in there?

kids im not sure if this has been moved to the debate forum yet but im posting my two cents anway.

Hitler was not a christian, he used god as a way of winning overthe Catholic political party, and of pushing his hatred of jews (by saying that jews killed jesus). His statesments over a belief in god etc were to calm down the religious populace that were angry over him betraying the Concordat with the church, and taking control of Catholic Schools into the hands of the state

AS for that crap about christians not starting any wars, have a look at the Albigensian (sp.?) crusade. THat'd be the thing that turned me off christianity forever. And christians broke about 2 dozen truces in the holy land, and were a hell of a lot more treacherous than the muslims. The point about the conquistadors in america should probably me shown as well.

*SPOILER*
Pullman isn't strictly pro-atheist, his attack on Asriel's 'Republic of Heaven', saying how it will fail etc, is an attack on the unrealistic ideals held by some atheists, who refuse to ground themselves in the real world.

Dust is not God, and even though the fallen angel isn't omnipotent, that's the whole point. The book is written under the assumption that religion is founded on a lie, and exists only to enforce it's own teaching. If you look over the whole underworld thing, you see that Pullman is saying that belief in higher powers of a religious sort is wasted - the priest who believes the really crappy underworld is actually heaven.

Metatron's usurpation of God's authority represents the misdirection of original religios ideas. If you disagree, let's rumble.


Cheerio,
Rubric

Okay, this tangent has gone far enough. If you want to continue this debate, I've started a thread in the Debate Group forum.

Link

A Christian is by definition "a little Christ." Christ was all about love and forgiveness and saving grace. So I will openly, outright challenge anyone like Hitler who claims to be a Christian.

That said, I'm totally okay with Pullman bashing God because that's his belief and my God is perfectly capable of defending himself. I've only read the Golden Compass and part of the Subtle Knife. I liked them, they were really original, although the fallen angels creeped me out lol. I agree Kepe in that I enjoyed his church-bashing lol. His God-bashing was a little offensive to me just because it was preachy, but atheism-preachy, which is almost an oxymoron I think. Anyway, I don't like books that preach. I like books with symbolism that make you think, but I hate authors, Christian or non-Christian, who scream at you what to believe. Still, I think Pullman makes very good points in his books which Christians should be ready to defend.

I need to finish that series so I can really discuss these books lol.

(Eep, ever so sorry, but my browser submitted this post prematurely!)

Conducting a purely religious reading of His Dark Materials is rather superficial. The religious aspect is merely a plot device that (if anything) serves to criticise a more fundamental social aspect.

What I extracted from the books wasn't that Pullman was trying to bash the notion of a monolithic religious structure, but rather point out that things cannot be regarded at face value. At times, the novel actually takes a religiously sympathetic tone I think.

More accurately, I'd describe Pullman's novels as an attack on totalitarianism in general. Remember that he is writing within several fictional worlds and Christianity isn't the only monolithic deity religion. Unless my memory fails me entirely, nowhere in the series does it directly say that the Authority is Christian^1. In fact, the very act of naming the deity figure as the 'Authority' supports the idea that the books conduct a more general criticism of totalitarianism rather than Christianity specifically.

I think that Pullman writes with an incredible amount of wit. HDM appears to make certain social criticisms, but the worlds in which the story is set are entirely fictional. Don't you think that his very assertion of aiming to write stark reality within the Fantasy genre exudes irony? HDM is not cast in black and white, thus such a reading shouldn't be made of it.

Perhaps that is where the root of its criticism lies, so critiques by those such as Hitchens actually support Pullman's apparent argument, merely by making such stark comparisons to C.S Lewis.

^1 - Alright, so it is heavily implied, but realize that many 'different' major world religions share similar creationist theories.

Rubric wrote:Dust is not God, and even though the fallen angel isn't omnipotent, that's the whole point.

Why can't Dust be God? (Or, "the divine" as opposed to "God," which has the connotations of the "Authority"?) It loves intelligent beings, it is sentient, separate from them and yet dependent on them (as it could be argued that a god needs people to believe in it for it's continued existence - see American Gods*) to continue doing good things.

Rubric wrote:Pullman isn't strictly pro-atheist, his attack on Asriel's 'Republic of Heaven', saying how it will fail etc, is an attack on the unrealistic ideals held by some atheists, who refuse to ground themselves in the real world.

I'd have to disagree with this reading, because if I remember correctly, Lyra and Will have to help people build the Republic of Heaven where they are instead of somewhere else. The Republic has to be built from the ground up, not imposed from above (which was Asriel's plan) like the Kingdom had been. I figured it was more of an anti-totalitarianism, not anti-God/anti-atheism, thing.

Again, I'd like to recommend Killing the Imposter God for more on that matter.

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*which is not a religious/theological book, just a novel - a good one, though

Ah thankyou all for pointing out some oversights on my part.

When I'm talking about Dust not being/symbollising god I'm refferring strictly to the god of abrahamic scripture. I think the sequence in the afterlife/world and the second-death of characters like Scoresby (becoming a part of the infinite universe), which is tied to the Subtle Knife itself and dust etc represents that there is a greater mysticism refferred to in Pullman's books. THerefore I won't refute any links between Dust and 'the Divine' because that kind of mysticism is so ill-defined that it is almost impossible to refute.

I'd also say this is why I'd agree with the idea of Pullman's attack being on totalitarianism as a whole rather than religion and mysticism per se. However despite the validity of the idea that symbollism cannot be translated directly out of fiction, I would have to say that the Authority itself is inextricabely linked with Christianity. The use of characters such as Metatron, the other angels, and witches for that matter all underline this link.

I think that's all,

Cheerio,
Rubric