So tell me...

Elves, dwarfs, humans and any other intelligent creature all living on one planet is...
... biologically and socially implossible . But hey, this is fantsy. So a wizard did it.


Personally, I'm no fan of fantasy (or at least, of high fantasy - tolkein fantasy if you like). But as I try to write in as many different genres as possible, I'll probably end up writing another one in the future (a few years ago, I use to be a fan of fantasy and dark elves - looky)

Ah, so you play Dark Elves? Or is it Dark Eldar? Weak races, but I can't speak as I do Wood elves.

Anyways! So! High fantasy, or that's how you call it. Yes, I'm surprised at how big it is in the reading world. Gosh, just go to DnD and read all the fluff about whatever race you want. Or if you do fantasy warhammer, go get a army book on whatever race you want to read about. Comparing the written work of this Salvadore, with fluff from the Dark Elves list is actually not that different. They have no place for honor, and the aspect of decieve and concealment are the big ideas here.

Assumptions, Aniar. We already know all about humans and their connections? Well, I guess if you are one of those individuals, your case cannot apply to the audience that "human" authors are writing for. But I can tell you this, knowledge or interest in the human qualities is all but decreasing in today's world. Sure, interest in another race may be somewhat of a demand in today's world, but not nearly as much interest in ourselves. I say because, well, elves aren't REAL (oh god! I did it again: I will prevail above the knowledge of Santa Claus!!). Something that we cannot truly empathize with, we cannot truly appreciate it. Also, as we cannot place ourselves into something but our own bodies, we will only be able to make assuptions of what it would be like to be a bear or wolf. Hence forth you get the werewolf and vampire. They have made the humane connection by still withholding the human aspect of the werewolf. It's a human until the full moon; the vampire is a human til darkness. But with elves, we have nothing to even saddle off of to even begin making that humane connection. Elves are totally make-believe... Structuring your novels off of these races of make-believe has the foundation of a hay house in the 'Three Little Pigs'. Your audience truly is who has interest and appreciation in elves, and that is not very wise, as you have to rely on your make-believe race to carry you through the whole story.

Now I understand, this elf is by himself differant from all the other elves, am I right? Like you said Aniar, he has some sort of humane traits. But what environment is he in? I remember the environment being totally of elves, am I right? The underworld has dark elves, and what's on top again? I can't remember. So how does his human abilities even work in an evironement not even of humans? Maybe to create the bond of audience to character, but what about character to character? Is this going to be Legolas and Gimli all through the novel? If there is the outlet where Drizzit's differances can coincide with a human world, you play the story backwards. Like I said, make-believe will only take you so far, even in a fantasy era.

~BS

I don't think that we necessarily have to relate to the character as much as we have to relate to the plot. Characters and races are nice, but the story is what makes something. Certain environments can be hard to relate to, but there are still some things people can relate to in an environment not their own. There are still the temptations of the human mind and the futile efforts to conceal all emotion. If you have a person who does not have to deal with those things, you probably have a perfect character which I think seriously destroys the whole story.

As for elves, I don't like them, but I didn't mind them at first. I do have to agree they are terribly overused making me not like them all the more.

I don't play warhammer any more (haven't for a couple of years). And I've thrown away all my warhammer books and white dwarf mags. Still have the models though. Dunno why.

BlueStone wrote:Ah, so you play Dark Elves? Or is it Dark Eldar? Weak races, but I can't speak as I do Wood elves.

Anyways! So! High fantasy, or that's how you call it. Yes, I'm surprised at how big it is in the reading world. Gosh, just go to DnD and read all the fluff about whatever race you want. Or if you do fantasy warhammer, go get a army book on whatever race you want to read about. Comparing the written work of this Salvadore, with fluff from the Dark Elves list is actually not that different. They have no place for honor, and the aspect of decieve and concealment are the big ideas here.

Assumptions, Aniar. We already know all about humans and their connections? Well, I guess if you are one of those individuals, your case cannot apply to the audience that "human" authors are writing for. But I can tell you this, knowledge or interest in the human qualities is all but decreasing in today's world. Sure, interest in another race may be somewhat of a demand in today's world, but not nearly as much interest in ourselves. I say because, well, elves aren't REAL (oh god! I did it again: I will prevail above the knowledge of Santa Claus!!). Something that we cannot truly empathize with, we cannot truly appreciate it. Also, as we cannot place ourselves into something but our own bodies, we will only be able to make assuptions of what it would be like to be a bear or wolf. Hence forth you get the werewolf and vampire. They have made the humane connection by still withholding the human aspect of the werewolf. It's a human until the full moon; the vampire is a human til darkness. But with elves, we have nothing to even saddle off of to even begin making that humane connection. Elves are totally make-believe... Structuring your novels off of these races of make-believe has the foundation of a hay house in the 'Three Little Pigs'. Your audience truly is who has interest and appreciation in elves, and that is not very wise, as you have to rely on your make-believe race to carry you through the whole story.

Now I understand, this elf is by himself differant from all the other elves, am I right? Like you said Aniar, he has some sort of humane traits. But what environment is he in? I remember the environment being totally of elves, am I right? The underworld has dark elves, and what's on top again? I can't remember. So how does his human abilities even work in an evironement not even of humans? Maybe to create the bond of audience to character, but what about character to character? Is this going to be Legolas and Gimli all through the novel? If there is the outlet where Drizzit's differances can coincide with a human world, you play the story backwards. Like I said, make-believe will only take you so far, even in a fantasy era.

~BS

Salvatore*

You may be right Z, but the audience always need something to relate to. All i'm saying is it doesn't always have to be human. As well as that you cannot show two good sides fighting each other and expect your readers to choose who they like best. There has to always be a good side and a bad side or else the readers will spend too much time debating who's the good person instead of following the story.
And I know elves are not and have not ever been real, I just like using them and reading about them in fantasy novels.

What you read was the prequel trilogy to his real adventures on the surface among humans, dwarves and the light elves. The first book of the trilogy you read is basically about how Drizzt grows up and why he forsakes his family and his race.

Drizzt is a "drow" (dark elf), the drow are just like the stereotypical elves with the elegant grace and deft skill, but the drow are the opposite, they have black skin, and are basically, as a whole, evil. Drizzt's story is once of forsaking the evil ways of his race and using his prowess and incredible skills for the sake of good. Drizzt lives on the surface among humans and some of his closest friends are human, so I will give you that. I don't know if you saw or bothered reading, but in each part of one book, there is a journal written by Drizzt that conveys all of his beliefs and thoughts to the reader relating to the part of the story you just got done reading. These journals allow the reader to be inside his mind and share in his morals. And it is in these journals that shows his human emotions (sadness, happiness, anger, hope).

Ohhh, now that would be interesting! Two sides come together and there is no real good or bad. Choose you have to, for you are the one that strengthens the resolve. Interesting... I'll keep that in mind.

Salvadore for the bore... *sticks out tongue*

No, seriously... I understand Aniar, but it's not just this series I'm talking about. It's elves in general. I do not have a hating for them, it's just the way that authors use them that gets me thinking. Sure, elves are real nice and all. I get all goose-bumpy if the quiet elf comes into the scene to whoops some behind, but for them to hold the audience to your book is not very strong. Maybe as an enemy, or side plot the elves can hold their ground, but humans need to be the stong point in just about every story. Every single well-known author has had a human main character carry the novels for them. Look at every Disney movie, all humans... except for the once in awhile animals that show up. Bambi, Fox and the Hound, and Brother Bear. But each of these in turn have a strong human quality to it. Both Bambi AND FatH have hunting themes to it (which humans can relate to), Brother Bear has that main character start out as a human, and becomes a bear. If it's not direct human contact, it will be strong personification.

~BS

Look at LOTR.

Disney: "Peter Pan," "Dumbo," "Bambi," "Mickey Mouse," "Sleeping Beauty," etc.

Sure, they all have strong Human characteristics; so do elves, and I see nothing wrong with making them the focal point of one's narrative. Speaking of which, Salvadore *is* a well-known author, one of the best in his class. Humans do NOT have to be the center of a book for a book to be strong, or have some extremely deep meaning (see: "Goodbye, Chunky Rice"). The argument you're making is also somewhat pathetic.

Humans are writing these novels; escaping all human qualities rooted in a character is virtually impossible. One of the great things about the Fantasy genre is that each race selects one human attribute and pushes it to the extreme. When viewed in their entirety, the races form a superhuman, of sorts. This is perhaps what makes the Fantasy genre so alluring: that we can identify with a race, an entire people, who share our own strong suit.

You are ranting about your own personal preferences. If you don't like it, don't read it. Sure, give us your thoughts, but saying the author has failed, on some level, by not making humans the main character? That's pushing it.

I think it has to do writing style. Salvadore, I read some of his but not his writing style is not particulary a favorite of mine.

CL

Salvatore********************************************************

If you've read one of his books you should be getting it right CL!

HMPH ::crosses arms and looks away::


And thank you by the way Brad, couldn't have been more clear and to the point than that

Yeah, Brad pointed it all out now.

And really, if you've read even one of his books, you should be getting it right. I mean, they are so long that wouldn't you keep glancing at the cover every time you pick it up? In every single one you see huge bold letters saying his name.

Oh, and also, he writes about elves because almost all of his books are based about an era in Dungeons and Dragons, occupied by elves. And they pay him to write about that certain period adn land.

Please, people, stop being pedantic about his name. It's not that important.

*looks up* *laughs* Yea, I was hoping someone was going to get that. Some people just can't get over it.

So, yes Brad again comes to save the day am I right?... But I think EBM makes the best point. Is Salvatore being paid to write in a specific way? Maybe. That's something we have to consider. But are elves supposed to be the "focal" point of this series? We don't know because we didn't see the contract he signed. Oh, and EBM, I thought you were Tara talking from her past avatar; just to point something out.

Now. I see nothing in the first paragraph of Brad's statement that is at all debatable. All you state is that elves have a human characteristic. And? What; do you have the wide range of experience to just say things and hope they stick? Especially since that IS, from my view, very opinionated. Stop calling the kettle black...(you know how it goes). Salvatore is a great writer... Ummm okay. Jeroen Erwin is a bad writer. Now's not the time to bring up Dr. Seuss. Totally out of context. Human's do not have to be the the plot, story, and theme? Okay. Can you go on? I need to be able to make defensive arguments, but I can't as there is nothing to argue about. You have no position as you have made no position. I will look towards your reply...

Your second paragraph... *sigh* Very nicely done. You got me, right here *points to his little toe* I'm glad you were able to point out to us all what fantasy is and how it's created. Still, you have no point. That doesn't even relate to the topic I'm discussing. Yes, I'll give you an example. A dwarf... Human quality? Stubborness and physically short. Grudges like no other, but still connected to human quality. There, yes each race is created and still has human characteristics. But it's a matter of this make-believe character that we must assume to be of human qualities and relate to them! While it is possible, as there is an audience for those series, but is it desirable by the grand public? Taking a character that has no starting human qualities and then changing it to what has a 'superform' and making it relatable, is it enough? Superhuman? Is that needed? Why station an elf that doesn't even exist, push it with some steroids (hum-oids) and there you have it? Sooner or later the character becomes predictable with the limited amounts of human qualities. That's why they are good only at side plots and opposing good sides. If you just take the race and fill it with all it's goodness, and inject it with every human quality then go play DnD or pick up an RRG. Actually what makes it interesting, is that a character will have a potential to react in a humane manner but actually does not do it because of the situation and total chaos in that point in the book. That way the audience relates to the character, grasping the pages in a tense grip hoping the character takes the left route because the right is to lead to death. But that's just character building and has no real place in this argument. So sorry for my rabblings...

Your assumptions are quite off... Look at yourself for the answers. Know yourself before you know the enemy.

~BS

Thank you, Sun-Tzu, for that ever-enlightening tidbit at the end.

Your argument was that you disliked not having humans as the main characters. This is a non-debatable topic, as it is your opinion. Why he writes the way he does is irrelevant. Quite simply: if you don't like it, don't read it.

Well, if you do not like having humans as the main focal point, as others have already said, you might consider the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. It's a nice little series... Yes, quite little. 11 books out and each has at least 800 pages. My idea of a good time. Nearly ruined my love for bloody reading, but hey, you might try it. It's ALL about humans and it's ALL fantasy. There are some... monsters, but Humans are the main race, and it's quite a lovely story line. Just... bloody... freaking... long... I've said what I said.

One more thing... I do not particularly like elves because everyone wants to be they because they are literally superior to humans in every aspect ten fold.

--------------------------------

Elf One: Let's try walking on water!

Elf Two: Nah... We're two ounces too heavy...

Elf One: Well, we've walked on snow that only holds three and a half ounces. We can do it!

Elf Two: Alright...

And so they both go to the waters edge and use they're little pendants and WOOSH

Elf Two: I'm... falling... asleep...

Elf One: What?! How could you possibly--

I'm done.

BlueStone wrote:But I think EBM makes the best point. Is Salvatore being paid to write in a specific way? Maybe. That's something we have to consider.

Absolutely not. Bob Salvatore writes all his own stories, designs all his own plots (even in which he has designed stories for other's work... The War of the Spider Queen Trilogy (books), Demon Stone (playstation 2 game)... and much more) and made all his own characters. He said so himself as well as other friends of his who write introductions in his books. And in case your thinking it.. I don't think they would all make that up to cover for some underlying deal between him and Forgotten Realms.

And I don't have any other points because they have all been made.

I don't see you making much of a valid point beyond your assumption that Brad isn't making a point.

Zentillius wrote:One more thing... I do not particularly like elves because everyone wants to be they because they are literally superior to humans in every aspect ten fold.

--------------------------------

Elf One: Let's try walking on water!

Elf Two: Nah... We're two ounces too heavy...

Elf One: Well, we've walked on snow that only holds three and a half ounces. We can do it!

Elf Two: Alright...

And so they both go to the waters edge and use they're little pendants and WOOSH

Elf Two: I'm... falling... asleep...

Elf One: What?! How could you possibly--

I'm done.

It's magic. It doesn't have to have a sense of reality. That's why they call it fantasy.
When's the last time you've seen anything in fanstasy books measured or weighed or tested?

Fantasy involves logic, but in a more solving and figuring way... not explaining way.