Belief in God

When did "Godless Heathen" and "Higher Power" become trademarks?

Well, it sounds like my story isn't completely new here, but I can tell it for what it's worth...

I was raised "Christian," and I always believed in Christianity on an intellectual level. However, I don't know that I was really a Christian (i.e. saved, born again, converted, etc.) before I was about 16 or so.

When I was 16, my life was going through a lot of changes, and I was fighting with God on some things. Whenever I really thought about myself--when I did serious introspection--I felt like I had a lot of disgusting gunk and filth in my soul, kind of like one of those "this is your brain on drugs" commercials.

One night, I was journaling, and I just got tired of the gunk. So I told God that I was giving up, and He could just do His thing with me. I actually wrote a prayer to that effect in my journal. I'm not really sure if that was the point when I was "born again," or if it came before that, or after, or what. I do know that it came at some point, probably around that time, and I don't have that gunk in my soul anymore.

The world makes a lot more sense to me if God is in control. No offense, but I really don't see how anyone could live in any sort of sane, coherent way without believing in some sort of "Higher Power™." Come to think of it, what is that like, Meep?

It really bugs me when Christians in books and movies are portrayed as being either arrogant, self-righteous, pompous hypocrites, or smiley, happy, goody-two-shoes fools with no brains who just mindlessly swallow whatever their leader tells them and let everyone walk all over them, or some combination thereof. I can understand how that stereotype could have started. Sadly, I have known a few people like that, but most Christians I know are pretty much just ordinary people. So, not only is the stereotype annoying, it's not any more true than most other stereotypes. [/soapbox ]

I could also tell you another story or two which I won't post here. I'm going to wimp out like everyone else and say, "If you want to hear those, or if you want more details about anything else I said, feel free to PM me."

...And that was an incredibly long post. Hope some of it's helpful.

Just wanted to address your question. Don't mean to offend or anything. Nor do I intend to argue or get into an intense debate with you whatsoever, lol.

...

The world makes a lot more sense to me if God is in control. No offense, but I really don't see how anyone could live in any sort of sane, coherent way without believing in some sort of "Higher Power™." Come to think of it, what is that like, Meep?

I think I live sanely without a belief in a "higher power." My view is this: I do not know what the truth is (nor do I think any rational human being knows the entire truth). Therefore I'm not going to pretend to know what is true or not just to make myself feel better. I only know what I know. If there is a "higher power" I don't think it will "judge" me based on what I believe, I think it would "judge" me based on my actions. I tell myself to just be good in the world. If there is a God I'm sure I won't be judged negatively because I've lived with good intentions. If there isn't a God then I'll live my life being happy with the way I've acted and not be disappointed when I die .

...

So, not only is the stereotype annoying, it's not any more true than most other stereotypes. [/soapbox ]

I agree: all stereotypes are annoying, I think everyone is a victim of stereotypes in one way or another . It's how humans function .

logosgal, I think you raise an interesting question. It just ... is. I guess I'll post my thing, on the off chance it helps someone else with their research.

My mum & dad were both ex-Catholics. I was baptized, but we never went to church regularly and it was really only to please my grandparents, all Catholic. I had books about dinosaur evolution before any solid introduction to the Bible or religion, and I knew who John Lennon was before I knew who Jesus was. (I mean, I could identify "that-guy-on-the-cross" as Jesus, but I didn't have any real understanding of who he was or why we celebrated his birthday.)

It's also worth mentioning that I was eleven or twelve before I realized that people literally believe in the Bible. I always figured the stories - which I knew mostly from a Jehovah's Witness publication of Bible stories from my aunt - were allegorical, like Aesop's Fables. I wasn't introduced to religion in any real way until my friend in first grade - a Jehovah's Witness - gave me Listening to the Great Teacher, which I read with some interest. It was all nice morals and stuff, and by then I had a better idea of Christianity and God and whatever else, but it still didn't seem real in an immediate sense. (I do believe in Jesus, by the way; I believe there was this guy who died for our sins. If it worked, or if there is a God, I don't know and I'm okay with that.)


When I was a little older, I went through a phase of trying to believe. I tried to be Christian, but didn't believe it, really. I tried various forms of paganism, but still wasn't feelin' it and so I moved on. I do, actually, believe that there is some sort of Higher Power(™), but only because it's a nice idea and because I don't want to think I'm alone in the universe. I've actually had experiences that might be called religious, but I still don't really feel ... whatever it is religious people feel.

Hopefully, that answers your question and is helpful to anyone else who's been reading this thread for ideas/information.

Thank you, Meep and DoctorClicky, for your answers! That's very interesting. It's always good to have this sort of information; you never know when a "Godless Heathen" character may pop up.

DoctorClicky, your post raised several more questions for me. For the sake of time, I'll just ask one for now:

DoctorClicky wrote:I tell myself to just be good in the world.

This is something that's always puzzled me with atheists/agnostics. As a Christian, I believe that God defines good and evil in the Bible. As someone who doesn't know if there's a god or not, how do you know what "good" is, if you don't have a higher authority to provide a definition?

And by the way...

DoctorClicky wrote:My view is this: I do not know what the truth is (nor do I think any rational human being knows the entire truth).

I agree. No human can possibly know everything. Even taking an infinite god out of the picture, the universe is so vast that no finite person can know everything about it. If you add an infinite god into the mix, there's absolutely no way. It's just that I believe that the infinite God has told us a little about Himself, and if we listen, we can begin to know Him.


Meep, your post was very thought-provoking, but it kind of confused me. You say you don't believe in Christianity, but you also say that you do believe that there was this guy named Jesus who died for our sins. Could you explain that a little more? (Sorry if this is a vague question; I wasn't sure how to phrase it, exactly. )

logosgal wrote:Meep, your post was very thought-provoking, but it kind of confused me. You say you don't believe in Christianity, but you also say that you do believe that there was this guy named Jesus who died for our sins. Could you explain that a little more? (Sorry if this is a vague question; I wasn't sure how to phrase it, exactly. )

I'm guessing as to what Meep means here, but if I'm right, then I'm in agreement. I think she means that she thinks Jesus was a person who existed, and who died for our sins, yadda yadda yadda. However, the fact that historical evidence points to the existence of Jesus, or at least a person, or people who had a huge influence over the world in his/their time, does not prove by any means that he was the son of God. So, in a nutshell, Jesus existed, he died for our sins (that particular part taken from the Bible), but he was not the son of God - just an ordinary man, who happened to be a huge and influential figure in society of the day.

At least, I think that's what Meep means. That's what I am inclined to believe, anyway.

Hm. It's hard to explain, exactly, but what it is is this: someone - (I dunno who) - once said something like "believing Christ died is history, believing He died for you is Christianity," or something like that. I wish I remember exactly what it was and who said it, but there it is. I believe in the historical Jesus, and I believe that he died believing that he was offering himself as ransom for humanity's sins. However, I do not ascribe to any Christian dogma and I'm not sure that I believe in the God that Jesus believed in.

In short, I just think there was this guy, Jesus, who did good things, encouraged other people to do good things, and died for our sins. Whether he was God, or the Son of God, or even if there is a God isn't something I know for sure and that doesn't bother me.

(This same non-theology applies to, say, Buddha. I don't know about the spiritual bits, but he was trying to help people find enlightenment and it seems to work pretty well for his followers, so it's good. I suppose the same is true for any holy figure/prophet/whatever else who does good deeds and encourages others to do the same. I do not, however, support or believe in people who promote violence or hate - in their own name or anyone else's.)

edit: you were close, Captain Smurf, except that I don't know (or care) if he was the Son of God. I don't deny or confirm that and it doesn't matter to me.

Hmm. Interesting. So, let me see if I understand this right.

Meep, you believe that there was someone named Jesus who lived about 2,000 years ago. He was a nice guy who did nice things and taught other people to do nice things. He died believing that he was the Son of God, and he believed that he was dying for our sins. He may or may not have actually died for our sins, because he might not have been the Son of God. It doesn't matter to you whether or not there really is a god, or whether or not Jesus was the Son of God.

Cpt. Smurf, you believe that there was historically some guy named Jesus who thought that he was the Son of God, dying for our sins. He was fundamentally misguided in that belief, but he still managed to have a big influence on people for some reason.

...Is that correct?

logosgal wrote:This is something that's always puzzled me with atheists/agnostics. As a Christian, I believe that God defines good and evil in the Bible. As someone who doesn't know if there's a god or not, how do you know what "good" is, if you don't have a higher authority to provide a definition?

Ahh, good question, actually, great question ^_^. *thinks about it*

Firstly, I think being good is being comfortable with yourself and not feeling guilty about things. If one feels guilty about something then one isn't being good.

Secondly, I think hurting people (emotionally or physically) is bad. I think making people happy is good. I have no idea what the origins of that are: social norms, religion, or evolutionary wise the group of people who were nice lived and all the people that were mean killed eachother and thus the idea of being nice evolutionary survived (lol). But I think being good entail not causing harm because harming people brings sadness and hurt and pain, and I myself do not like pain, hurt or sadness, lol.

Thirdly, I think some views of mine come from society's social standards (not killing, not cheating/stealing). Like I somewhat mentioned, I don't know the origins of ethics. There is a question whether "Religion came from ethics or ethics came from religion?" AKA Did the standards that one has create religion (as there are numerous religions) or did the religion (aka God or God's Logos) create the standards (example: not cheating on a spouse).

Overall, I think society decides what is "bad" or "good" for the most part. And every individual evaluates society's views and judges them personally based on their experience.

One thing I don't agree with that society apparently thinks is that prostitution should be illegal. I, personally, don't feel it is our right to tell people their limitations on under what circumstance two adults can consent in sexual activities. By no means do I want to be a prostitute or higher a prostitute, but I don't believe it is fair for people to enforce their moral values on to other people.

I don't know why I brought up the prostitution thing, and I'm not entirely sure if I've answered your questions thoroughly.

I am not entirely sure what I judge as good or bad, my best answer is that I think bad things are what causes harm.

I believe my answer might be quite simular to the answer to this question: how does one who follows God's Logos determine whether something that is ambiguous in the Bible (assuming this is what you follow) or religious literature determine if it's good or bad?

Example: (Ok, I'm not sure what the Bible says about this but I'll make it my first example). I assume the Bible says killing is bad. Does the Bible say anything about killing in self-defense? If not, how does one decide that it is ok to kill in self-defense when killing is a sin? (then again the Bible might say it is ok, I'm not entirely sure)

Example 2: Would you say slavery is good or bad? I believe the bible mentions stories about slavery quite a few times and does not condemn it. So in that context, if you followed the bible, wouldn't slavery be acceptable?

Example 3: This is actually somewhat different, I must admit. But I believe the Bible may say some things about woman not preaching or behaving in particular ways. Would you agree that not following by those standards is "bad" or normal? (I apologize as I am not exactly sure what is said. I just recall hearing things such that the Bible says for women to do particular stuff, such as cover their heads or something. I have no evidence at the moment of what is said, I can look it up later if you or interested. I saw it on Real World or something, LOL. Yes, I know, an incredible source [/sarcasm]).

PS: I apologize if Bible is the incorrect word for the literature you follow. If it is something else just replace Bible with whatever, once again, I apologize.

The world makes a lot more sense to me if God is in control. No offense, but I really don't see how anyone could live in any sort of sane, coherent way without believing in some sort of "Higher Power™." Come to think of it, what is that like, Meep?

Btw, I wanna apologize. I didn't realize Meep was a person (lol). I thought you were just making sound effects like "meep" or "hmmm" ... LOL. I apologize for answering if you did not expect me to logos (I was going to make sure you knew what Logos meant in my previous post, but I see it's in your name so I have no explaining to do ).

Btw, I consider myself an (agnostic) Unitarian Universalist in case you were curious.

Well this may sound a bit mean, but... I just think that it might not be the smartest thing to write about something you know nothing about. I mean, usually one writes better when they speak from their own personal experiences. You could certainly have a side character with a religious view who the main character doesn't understand or what not. Sorry about saying all that, I mean, it probably isn't what you want to hear. As for myself...

Well, I suppose my opinions began when I asked myself 'Is there a god, or isn't there?', as that is the root and beginning of your beliefs. For me the feelings were very logical, and so freeing, but I do think in a weird way- anyway back to the 'story. After I established in my mind that it would take far too much faith to believe in no creator what so ever, the question was then who? or which one? The Muslim god Allah was easy to rule out, like I as a girl, would believe in a religion where women apparently cannot go to heaven. Yeah right. Then I dealt with the whole eastern mysticism thing,
and honestly though it was to unclear and too dependent on the individual. Then I was forced to look at Jesus Christ. Two things were immediately apparent 1) The "church" throughout history has done a ton of things against what the Bible itself teaches and 2) That the Word of God, and
the simple story of redemption through Jesus was beautiful, and then and there I believed. But, I still had one big issue. How could I handle the obvious corruption of the "church" through the ages? My answer was simple. I believe in 'sola scriptura' that scripture alone defines the the truth, and that no human can change or dictate the word of God. I believe that the true definition of a Christian is one who has a relationship with God. Not one who goes to church or sprinkles "holy water" all over themselves, and I am currently under the realization that 90% of people who say they are Christians are absolute phonies (not to discredit anyone here, but I personally have met quite a few). Which is sad.

So I suppose I used a process of deduction and faith, as if they mix. If you want me to tell you really about what it 'feels' like and to tell some stories you could PM me. Once again sorry for not directly answering your question.

Kepe wrote:Well this may sound a bit mean, but... I just think that it might not be the smartest thing to write about something you know nothing about. I mean, usually one writes better when they speak from their own personal experiences. You could certainly have a side character with a religious view who the main character doesn't understand or what not. Sorry about saying all that, I mean, it probably isn't what you want to hear. As for myself...

Who was this directed to?

...

I believe that the true definition of a Christian is one who has a relationship with God. Not one who goes to church or sprinkles "holy water" all over themselves, and I am currently under the realization that 90% of people who say they are Christians are absolute phonies (not to discredit anyone here, but I personally have met quite a few). Which is sad.

Although I am not Christian, I half-agree with you and half-disagree with you. I completely agree some people "Christians" are phonies, some of them express so much hate for others (and they "sin") that I find it extremely hard to believe they would go to "heaven" when they've had so much hate/anger.

On the other hand, I am curious how it is that one decides what a "Real Christian" is. I bet you could get 20 or more different answers from people defining a "Real Christian". How does one come to it in the end?

As for your definition. I'm sure that other religions have the exact same defintion as you do for Christian as they do for their religion. Having a relationship with God. In a sense, could one not say I have a relationship with God due to the fact that I believe in a sense of goodness and that I am against do wrong-doings?

I just want it to be known I probably look like a huge idiot because this entire time I didn't see the first page and I thought the original post was Logos' question. I am entirely sorry, LOL.

logosgal wrote:Meep, you believe that there was someone named Jesus who lived about 2,000 years ago. He was a nice guy who did nice things and taught other people to do nice things. He died believing that he was the Son of God, and he believed that he was dying for our sins. He may or may not have actually died for our sins, because he might not have been the Son of God. It doesn't matter to you whether or not there really is a god, or whether or not Jesus was the Son of God.

95% correct.
Regardless of whether or not God exists, this guy, Jesus, did die for our sins. In this case, the intention matters more than the outcome. I just don't know if there's any sort of Higher Power who was watching, and if It was watching, even cared.

Kepe, I often write ensemble casts and they can't all be nonreligious if I'm writing about interfaith friendships and conflicts and stuff. (While I can't say what it's like to believe in God, I do have a lot of experience with interfaith friendships - my best friend is a Jehovah's Witness. It's hard to write about something you haven't personally experienced, but it's possible, and I need religious characters for a story about faith and friendship.)

DoctorClicky wrote:I apologize for answering if you did not expect me to logos (I was going to make sure you knew what Logos meant in my previous post, but I see it's in your name so I have no explaining to do ).

:D LOL. You're the first person on YWS to say that they knew what my username means. (For anyone else who's reading this, "Logos" is Greek for "word" or "reason" and was used in the New Testament to refer to Jesus. The most well-known instance of its use is at the beginning of the book of John, where it says, "In the beginning was the Word [Logos]..." Before that, I think it was also used in Greek philosophy as a word for some sort of force that binds the universe/brings order, but I'm not as familiar with that aspect of it.) And, as far as I'm concerned, you've nothing to apologize to me for, DoctorClicky... I'm glad to hear your opinion!

DoctorClicky wrote:I believe my answer might be quite simular to the answer to this question: how does one who follows God's Logos determine whether something that is ambiguous in the Bible (assuming this is what you follow) or religious literature determine if it's good or bad?

Good question! First of all, the Bible leaves a lot less ambiguity than you might think. That aside, there are some issues that the Bible doesn't address (for example, there's no Bible verse that says, "Thou, O logosgal, shalt attend X University for thine undergraduate studies," as much as I wish it did... ), but it pretty much always gives principles that a Christian can follow that would inform a decision (like it talks about how Christians should get together regularly to fellowship and stuff, so from that I know that I want to go to a college where there are other Christians). What a Christian needs to do in those situations is study the Bible carefully where it does talk about those things, talk to older/wiser Christians who might have some insight on the situation, and pray and ask God for wisdom. I hope that answers your question...

I'm going to PM you (probably tomorrow at this point) about the examples you raised from the Bible, because each of them could be a whole other thread, and I don't want to take this one too far away from its original topic. If that's a problem for anyone, I'd be happy to PM them with the same information, too.

Kepe wrote:I just think that it might not be the smartest thing to write about something you know nothing about. I mean, usually one writes better when they speak from their own personal experiences. You could certainly have a side character with a religious view who the main character doesn't understand or what not. Sorry about saying all that, I mean, it probably isn't what you want to hear.

Although I agree that you shouldn't write about something that you know absolutely nothing about, I think it's okay to write about stuff you haven't personally experienced. Otherwise pretty much all of fantasy and science-fiction would be out. Just as long as you do your research and aren't disrespectful when writing it...

DoctorClicky wrote:

I believe that the true definition of a Christian is one who has a relationship with God. Not one who goes to church or sprinkles "holy water" all over themselves, and I am currently under the realization that 90% of people who say they are Christians are absolute phonies (not to discredit anyone here, but I personally have met quite a few). Which is sad.

Although I am not Christian, I half-agree with you and half-disagree with you. I completely agree some people "Christians" are phonies, some of them express so much hate for others (and they "sin") that I find it extremely hard to believe they would go to "heaven" when they've had so much hate/anger.

On the other hand, I am curious how it is that one decides what a "Real Christian" is. I bet you could get 20 or more different answers from people defining a "Real Christian". How does one come to it in the end?

As for your definition. I'm sure that other religions have the exact same definition as you do for Christian as they do for their religion. Having a relationship with God. In a sense, could one not say I have a relationship with God due to the fact that I believe in a sense of goodness and that I am against do wrong-doings?

As to the question of being a "Real Christian," I would add to Kepe's definition that you also have to believe the essential claims of Christianity, because, as you said, DoctorClicky, you can think you have a relationship with the god of some other religion. (You can, of course, also have the theology right without having the relationship, which is also not really Christianity.) Though I'm actually not aware of any other religions that claim that you can really have a relationship, as such, with their god(s). (And thus I demonstrate your point about getting 20 answers for what a "real Christian" is. )

Kepe, I like what you said about "sola scriptura." That's a good point: you have to go to the Bible to really understand true Christianity. And I guess that rule holds true for other religions, too: you have to go to the original text/source to really understand them. If you want to know about Islam, read the Koran; if you want to know about Mormonism, read the Book of Mormon, etc. I, too, have known quite a few "Christians" who were pretty phony (though I don't think it's been quite 90% of them...). Actually, DoctorClicky, I guess that's pretty much the best way to answer your question about defining "Real Christian:" look in the Bible.

Meep wrote:Regardless of whether or not God exists, this guy, Jesus, did die for our sins. In this case, the intention matters more than the outcome. I just don't know if there's any sort of Higher Power who was watching, and if It was watching, even cared.

:? Er... I'm confused again. If there is no god who cares about people's sins, how could Jesus--or anyone else--have died for our sins? What good would it do?

I think that's all I wanted to say for now... If this post seems disorganized/nonsensical, you can probably blame it on the fact that it's past midnight and I got up early(ish) this morning and I have to get up really early to babysit two- and three-year-olds in the morning. Which is why I'm off to bed now...

I'll put my two cents in, if nobody minds.

I grew up in a catholic church, the same service every sunday. on saturdays going to ask the priest for forgiveness, and always having to say a few hail mary's and our Fathers. Something always seemed out of place. such as if Jesus died for us, to forgive our sins then why am i wasting every saturday going to a priest when all i have to do is ask Jesus my self.
In highschool i finally became born again as they say. you want to know what it feels like to beleive in God? Without Him alot of things didnt make sense to me. Never felt right.
With Him i have a peace in side me, call it my soul. I know longer am a lone in this world ever. With God on myside i can't lose. I can talk and He always hears me. I feel Him when i talk to Him.
If all the living things on earth know their creator, why are we the only ones who think we are smarter then Him, and know how this world was created.
I guess in the end, EVERYONE will know He exists, and most will wish they could go back and redo their life.
The emptiness does not exist in a person who Truly loves Him.

carl

logosgal wrote::? Er... I'm confused again. If there is no god who cares about people's sins, how could Jesus--or anyone else--have died for our sins? What good would it do?

It's the thought that counts. He believed in God, and He believed in sin, and He died as a ransom for our sins. It might not have done any good, cosmically speaking, but his disciples managed to spread the word of loving thy neighbor and turning the other cheek and sometimes you need a martyr for a cause.

Also, there needn't be any sort of Higher Power for there to be "sin." (Buddhism, if I remember correctly, has no "God," but it does have a very strict set of rules and a number of "sins." Confucianism, a philosophy, not a religion, also has acts more-or-less like "sins," although I'm pretty sure neither group would call those "bad" acts "sins.")