That was massive and I don't have normal forum tools so this won't be particularly elaborate.
First: I get what you mean. A lot of norms from religion enter the lives of the nonreligious. I don't see anything wrong with that. I hope I didn't come across that way. Sure, I think murder is a bad thing, and a commandment from God is not to murder. Big whoop. I'm not going to reject it because "God" said it.
Second: I never said good is good. I'd like for you to explain this. I was deconstructing God as a moral authority, and how we arrive to our determinations of what is good or bad. There is no circular logic. I think I was pretty damn clear actually. :p
Third: I actually believe perceptions ARE truths, but that falls under my epistemological rubbish and belongs in a different conversation.
Fourth: Science =/= philosophy. Facts =/= truth.
Fifth: I think it's relevant, even though you might not: Why do you believe God is absolute good? You have failed to convincingly find fault in my main argument, so I guess this is an opportunity to present yours.
Your thoughts on the concept of Evil please :)
20 posts in this topic.
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1. Just making sure! There are a bunch of people who would reject it, solely because of the fact that it comes from a religious premise. These people are generally known as anarchists.
2. I believe you said it here:If God deems an action good because it already is good, then we don't need God for our ethics. Things are good independent of God.
^ See? You imply here that things are already good, which implies that they are good. So, good is good. Again, a bit tautological, but whatever.
3. Do you believe in individualistic perceptions being truths then?
4. Um... no duh? I mean, yeah, science used to be a form of philosophy, but in the 1500s (I think that this was the approximate time?) then science branched out because people had the bright idea of using empirical evidence, thus distinguishing it from philosophy.
5. Because that is the axiom that I start with. A tautological statement, if you will. You can start with other axioms, of course, and I'm sure you do in your inquiries. But this one is the one that makes the most sense to me because it is the one that progressed the most intelligently as I got further in the inquiry. The other axioms seemed to slip off into absurdity.
EDIT:
Also, if that answer for 5 seems a bit incomplete (it does to me as well) that's because it's part of a multi-step proof. The first step is to determine whether you exist and, if you do exist, then what is the nature of your existence. So you deal with the issues of human limitation, human perception, human pain, human life, human death... etc., etc. No God mentioned at all. This usually evolves into the question of the existence of other things, starting with the material and, if you progress that far, the immaterial (concepts like freedom, for instance). Anyway, if you get far along enough, then the question of a higher power usually springs up. And if you get past that, then the assumption is that God is good... which, of course you try to disprove through contradiction because otherwise, it would hardly be fun!
So, it's not completely arbitrary or without thought, though it might look like it at first. In any case, you can understand why I am not particularly keen about explaining the reasoning in an atheist/agnostic club. It seems more apt in a Christian club. -
Let me rephrase for you to understand. Is what is morally good deemed so by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is deemed so by God? Then maybe going back you can decipher the argument. There is no tautology.
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An evil person (in my mind which is heavily influenced by Dungeons and Dragons) is simply someone who can willingly commit an evil act without guilt or reason. However, what constitutes an evil act is another matter. This, I think, is the real question here. I think the rights of man, namely life, love, joy, and liberty, are the borders of evil. Those who would make without reason to take these rights from any other person are evil.
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To decide that, you have to define evil. I know people have done bad things, but I think that people have to justify it. People don't do things without reasons. I think people who do bad things think they're doing good things or feel that, say, committing murder isn't avoidable. They think it's a necessary sacrifice. No one that I know of does something that they know is cruel just for the fun of it. So, no. I don't think there is evil.
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