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1. 
   

   Hijinks Admin
   Hijinks · Aug 1, 2020

   Do not go gentle into that good night by Dylan Thomas
   
   

   Do not go gentle into that good night,
   Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
   Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
   
   Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
   Because their words had forked no lightning they
   Do not go gentle into that good night.
   
   Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
   Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
   Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
   
   Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
   And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
   Do not go gentle into that good night.
   
   Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
   Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
   Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
   
   And you, my father, there on the sad height,
   Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
   Do not go gentle into that good night.
   Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

   
   
   Discussion questions
   
   1. Do you feel like this poem approaches the subject of death bitterly, or hopefully, or neutrally?
   
   2. This poem is a villanelle, which means the lines "Do not go gentle into that good night" and "Rage, rage against the dying of the light" are reused throughout the poem. Do you enjoy the use of repetition?
   
   3. Dylan Thomas compares life and death to day and night throughout this poem. Do you think that is an overused comparison?
   
   4. The first five stanzas are general and could apply to anyone, but the last stanza becomes specific and more personal. Does this affect how you read the poem? Do you think it would be stronger if the poem was addressed to the speaker's father from the start? Or if there was no reference to the father at all?
   
   
   Use as many or few of these questions as you like - if there's anything else you'd like to discuss about the poem, go ahead!
2. 
   

   alliyah Admin
   alliyah · Aug 3, 2020

   Great poem choice @whatchamacallit! The first time I took a serious look at this poem was actually on YWS about 3 years ago, so I'm feeling a bit amused reading my interpretations from then and then looking at the poem now.
   
   1. I think the poem definitely address death in a complex way, where it's not quite positive or negative. I think it shows that grieving for someone dying is hard. But I think it also shows there's sometimes a sort of reverence for those who are dying as they encounter death.
   
   The speaker goes over how different sorts of people approach death - and the first one seems positive? "wise men at their end know dark is right" - however, they hope that for their own loved one, that they'll fight death until the very end.
   
   2. Yep loved the repetition in this case, and loved the contrasting end words of night / light too as it really highlighted the struggle between life and death and the form reflected the content (the poetry professor from the poetry course I took in college always loved to highlight form reflecting content, it's fun to see it happen) -> the speaker continues to repeat themselves and so literally within the poem continues to rage, just as they request their loved one to.
   
   Another great thing is the speaker's contrasting tone between "do not go gentle" which feels calm and just like a request and then the "rage, rage" which is incredibly emotional and feels desperate - this adds again to what I said about the complexity of the poem's emotional state.
   
   3. I do think it's overused, but that doesn't mean we should abandon it. And I also think that sometimes using metaphors for death makes the poem more palatable because you're not immediately hit over the head with "death / life" which can be off-putting. Sometimes though it's better to just be direct, and I think that's the benefit here of using a metaphor we already are familiar with, is readers are less likely to miss or misread the intentions here.
   
   4. I think the middle part is pretty easy to skim over - this poem could really just be the first and last stanza and I feel like you'd get 99% of the content. This is actually something that's tough to do with a villanelle or any poem that makes use of a chorus, is how to make the chorus continually relevant and new. I like the movement from general to specific, but I wonder if the first stanza could have been more striking.
   
   other
   Another thing I wanted to bring up is I like that the speaker doesn't romanticize death and I like that the speaker comes across as selfish. I think the complexity they're dealing with here is a better reflection of grief than some other ways I've seen death handled in poetry where it's just "oh wow I'll miss you, rest easy." this isn't peaceful at all. It's angry! I don't think we should take this poem as a helpful way to console someone who is dying -> but more of a reflection of what grief feels like.
   
   ^^ I think this is a really important distinction in poetry, because sometimes people think that they are supposed to take whatever action the speaker takes as a sort of "moral on how to behave" and that really limits poetic interpretation, expression, etc. Sometimes a poem just vents - sometimes you don't have to like the speaker - and sometimes the speaker does things that we shouldn't like - and that's okay!
   
   Curious to hear other people's thoughts!
3. 
   

   starlitmind
   starlitmind · Aug 12, 2020

   1.) To me, it seemed like the poem approaches the subject of death bitterly or negatively? It sounded like the speaker was saying to fight against “the dying of the light,” to not yield to the fading of the light, to try and survive for as long as you can. I read it like the speaker was telling me to not give up easily (“Do not go gentle into that good night” - if you're too far gone to be saved, at least don't give up without a fight) and to fight until your last breath.
   
   2.) Yes, I enjoyed the repetition! It almost seems like a warning in a way since it’s repeated several times. This also ties in with my response to the first question; because I feel like the repetition acts as a warning, it seems as though the speaker is portraying death in a bad light and is almost scared of it in a way. I don’t know if I’m straying a bit, but a lot of times when you’re in panic, you don’t think clearly and kind of just act without thinking? Like if you’re in a struggle with another person, you don’t think, but you just kick and flail your arms and do whatever you can to get away. Perhaps when you’re near death, you might be panicking, and that may be where the “rage” comes from? I don’t know if that makes sense xD
   
   3.) Perhaps it’s overused, but I liked it here!
   
   4.) I think it would’ve been stronger if the poem was addressed to the speaker’s father from the start, because it seemed to come out of nowhere, if that makes sense? I feel that if most of the poem could apply to anyone, then maybe it would be best to stick with that for the whole poem (or the reverse, addressed to the speaker's father from the beginning).
   
   Thanks for doing this <3
4. 
   

   Morrigan
   Morrigan · Aug 12, 2020

   Hello! I love this poem.
   
   1. I think that this poem approaches death from a bitter standpoint that is tempered with hope. It's angry, yes, but the speaker is filled with fire because he is fearful of his father leaving him. This poem is a call to action to his father, as well, tinting it with hope. It tells him to not give up, which means the speaker is still clinging to hope that his father will not die.
   There's also a little bitterness towards the father himself, as if the son believes he is starting to give up.
   "Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
   Because their words had forked no lightning they
   Do not go gentle into that good night."
   The speaker acknowledges that the father is a wise man, but then goes on to say that he hasn't really changed anything in his lifetime, and still has business to take care of. By pointing this jab at his father, it feels like the speaker is trying to prod him until he gets angry and actually does cling to life, as the speaker wishes.
   
   2. I really like villanelles when they're written well, and this is one of the best examples. The repetition works flawlessly, and the middle stanzas serve to illustrate the complex emotions that the speaker is feeling. Anger at death, at life, at the father. The repeating lines keep the poem anchored in the main idea, though. I believe that repetition is used very successfully here.
   
   3. I feel like day and night compared to death can fall into an overused category, but it's more of an idiom than a cliche. He could try to reinvent the wheel, but that would actually take away from the amount of lines he would have to convey the rest of his message. The comparison of day to life and night to death is almost instinctual, as it's when the sun "dies," and when people generally go to sleep (the closest thing to death that we experience). Dylan Thomas does not explain the day/night metaphors in the poem because he knows we already are on board with them.
   I personally am not a fan of abstract nouns in a poem, so comparing life and death to day and night is definitely a step up from just saying "life" and "death."
   
   4. It's obvious in the first stanza that he is addressing this poem to someone. We just don't know who it is yet. I believe that the way the father is introduced works for this poem. The center stanzas actually give us clues to whom the poem is addressed. We have the repetition of "man" near the beginning of each stanza, each attached to a descriptor. They illustrate the love that the speaker feels for his father before we know it is his father. When the father is revealed, it makes sense why the poet wrote this with such passion.
5. 
   

   alliyah Admin
   alliyah · Aug 13, 2020

   I like what @starlitmind points out here
   
   

   when you’re in panic, you don’t think clearly and kind of just act without thinking

   
   
   ^ the speaker does come across as frantic and in an almost irrational way - death is inevitable so "raging against it" can only do so much. In a way they're doing exactly the opposite of what they say that "wise men" do by urging their father to fight death.
   
   I agree with @Morrigan about this being a really good example of villanelle structure working - the chorus not only anchors the poem in a single theme but isn't stagnant or non-progressing too but by the end with the reveal of the subject being the father the chorus & poem's meaning become more dramatic & impactful as the piece goes on.
6. 
   

   Liminality Admin
   Liminality · Aug 29, 2020

   1. I think the poem creates a hopeful mood for the reader surrounding death, though the speaker may not carry a hopeful attitude towards them. The "men" are portrayed heroically, as though it seems inevitable that "night" will come, it's the right thing to do to resist inevitable death. (so I agree with @starlitmind here) I kind of see this in the modality, as in "should" and "do not". However, there is also the sense of death's injustice in how all of these men seem close to accomplishing something, but are robbed of that when they go, i.e. in the wise men dying before they can make an impact.
   
   2. Yes - I think the repetition creates unity. This is important because each stanza's imagery, while connected, is on the surface about a different figure than the last. The repetition helps the reader see that they are all interconnected and implicitly relate to the speaker's father.
   
   I also love @alliyah's point about the form reflecting struggle - I honestly have never noticed that while reading this poem xD
   
   3. I agree with @Morrigan on the day/night thing being more of an "idiom" than a cliche. I think it's what we call a "dead metaphor", as in a metaphor used so often it ceases to be a metaphor. I find that the day/night imagery is really easy to catch onto and accept when you read the poem. It almost feels universal.
   
   4. I find it good that the poem becomes more personal. It makes sense for the rhetorical structure of the poem - listing a bunch of different examples to analogise to a particular "something" more important or striking than the rest. I think it could have ended up anticlimactic if it weren't so personal.
   
   As a side note, I like this rhetorical structure because it incorporates the speaker's father into a wider network of people in the face of death. It makes the poem both specifically and generally meaningful or relatable.
   
   Thanks for organising this, @whatchamacallit!
7. 
   

   Starve
   Starve · Aug 31, 2020

   Haha this is the poem that made me want to learn to write a villanelle. I have not read any of the other comments so as not to mix them in with my thoughts, but I'll read them at the end and add afterthoughts if any.
   
   1. Do you feel like this poem approaches the subject of death bitterly, or hopefully, or neutrally? I would say neutrally, as an accepted final deadline that cannot be removed, but which should not be given into until you absolutely have to. It accepts death but doesn't accept giving in to it.
   
   2. This poem is a villanelle, which means the lines "Do not go gentle into that good night" and "Rage, rage against the dying of the light" are reused throughout the poem. Do you enjoy the use of repetition?
   
   Yes, especially because it ties in well with the rest of the imagery and wordplay very well, adding a new thought-inflection in every stanza. Which is how good villanelle refrains can be expected to be, although not necessarily.
   
   3. Dylan Thomas compares life and death to day and night throughout this poem. Do you think that is an overused comparison?
   
   I assume this question asks if it's cliched, to which I would say yes it is, and no it is not a problem since it's used well here. This poem is perhaps the most famous out of all the works using this comparison.T his comparison is also apt and natural compared to some other cliches like a "broken heart", and I'd suggest looking around various Western and Eastern mythologies and stories to find it a common though perhaps not ubiquitous theme.
   
   4. The first five stanzas are general and could apply to anyone, but the last stanza becomes specific and more personal. Does this affect how you read the poem? Do you think it would be stronger if the poem was addressed to the speaker's father from the start? Or if there was no reference to the father at all?
   
   It does affect it, and no I don't think it would be stronger either way, although it might be depending on how the poet ended up rendering those versions. The first five stanzas being general allow it to be held closer and be more relatable which might not be the case if it was to be a powerful lament for a dying old man, in which case people with a dying father who they love would relate to it more strongly, and less so the general populace. The other way around, would make it too general I guess, just one out of the dozens of such poems. This last stanza adds a personal touch to it, definitely helps ground it and make it a much more definite work.
   
   Afterthoughts— I agree with alliyah's comments on how the speaker doesn't romanticize death, although I think it is based on a certain morality system. (Which isn't a bad thing, that grounds it and makes it more impactful though perhaps for a slightly smaller populace.)
   And I think Liminality's side note is something I've hinted at in my own answers too.
   
   Thanks for organizing this, @whatchamacallit ! I think I can be present in future discussions because I have a better grip on my time now.

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