Poetry Readers

alliyah Admin

alliyah · Jul 4, 2020

A Map to the Next World by Joy Harjo (Current US Poet Laureate) poem source

In the last days of the fourth world I wished to make a map for
those who would climb through the hole in the sky.

My only tools were the desires of humans as they emerged
from the killing fields, from the bedrooms and the kitchens.

For the soul is a wanderer with many hands and feet.

The map must be of sand and can’t be read by ordinary light. It
must carry fire to the next tribal town, for renewal of spirit.

In the legend are instructions on the language of the land, how it
was we forgot to acknowledge the gift, as if we were not in it or of it.

Take note of the proliferation of supermarkets and malls, the
altars of money. They best describe the detour from grace.

Keep track of the errors of our forgetfulness; the fog steals our
children while we sleep.

Flowers of rage spring up in the depression. Monsters are born
there of nuclear anger.

Trees of ashes wave good-bye to good-bye and the map appears to
disappear.

We no longer know the names of the birds here, how to speak to
them by their personal names.

Once we knew everything in this lush promise.

What I am telling you is real and is printed in a warning on the
map. Our forgetfulness stalks us, walks the earth behind us, leav-
ing a trail of paper diapers, needles, and wasted blood.

An imperfect map will have to do, little one.

The place of entry is the sea of your mother’s blood, your father’s
small death as he longs to know himself in another.

There is no exit.

The map can be interpreted through the wall of the intestine—a
spiral on the road of knowledge.

You will travel through the membrane of death, smell cooking
from the encampment where our relatives make a feast of fresh
deer meat and corn soup, in the Milky Way.

They have never left us; we abandoned them for science.

And when you take your next breath as we enter the fifth world
there will be no X, no guidebook with words you can carry.

You will have to navigate by your mother’s voice, renew the song
she is singing.

Fresh courage glimmers from planets.

And lights the map printed with the blood of history, a map you
will have to know by your intention, by the language of suns.

When you emerge note the tracks of the monster slayers where they
entered the cities of artificial light and killed what was killing us.

You will see red cliffs. They are the heart, contain the ladder.

A white deer will greet you when the last human climbs from the
destruction.

Remember the hole of shame marking the act of abandoning our
tribal grounds.

We were never perfect.

Yet, the journey we make together is perfect on this earth who was
once a star and made the same mistakes as humans.

We might make them again, she said.

Crucial to finding the way is this: there is no beginning or end.

You must make your own map.

Discussion Questions - feel free to stray from these, or comment off of what other people have said.

1. What feeling/mood do you take away from this poem? Why?

2. How would you interpret it?

3. How does the imagery contribute to your interpretation?

4. Joy Harjo has Native American background and her poetry utilizes Native American myths, culture, and stories - is it necessary to have background in those topics to appreciate and understand the poem? Or do you think it's universally accessible?

I'll try to weigh in later, and try to comment a bit on what you all say, but I'll let you all get started first! If you want to skip the discussion questions, pose your own questions, or just talk about your interpretations/ impressions/ what other folks are saying, please feel free - this is informal and the discussion will be open until the end of July. Feel free to comment multiple times and take different perspectives too. I'm excited to hear what you all think of this poem!

[b]A Map to the Next World[/b]  by Joy Harjo (Current US Poet Laureate) [url=https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49621/a-map-to-the-next-world]poem source[/url]

[quote]In the last days of the fourth world I wished to make a map for
those who would climb through the hole in the sky.

My only tools were the desires of humans as they emerged
from the killing fields, from the bedrooms and the kitchens.

For the soul is a wanderer with many hands and feet.

The map must be of sand and can’t be read by ordinary light. It
must carry fire to the next tribal town, for renewal of spirit.

In the legend are instructions on the language of the land, how it
was we forgot to acknowledge the gift, as if we were not in it or of it.

Take note of the proliferation of supermarkets and malls, the
altars of money. They best describe the detour from grace.

Keep track of the errors of our forgetfulness; the fog steals our
children while we sleep.

Flowers of rage spring up in the depression. Monsters are born
there of nuclear anger.

Trees of ashes wave good-bye to good-bye and the map appears to
disappear.

We no longer know the names of the birds here, how to speak to
them by their personal names.

Once we knew everything in this lush promise.

What I am telling you is real and is printed in a warning on the
map. Our forgetfulness stalks us, walks the earth behind us, leav-
ing a trail of paper diapers, needles, and wasted blood.

An imperfect map will have to do, little one.

The place of entry is the sea of your mother’s blood, your father’s
small death as he longs to know himself in another.

There is no exit.

The map can be interpreted through the wall of the intestine—a
spiral on the road of knowledge.

You will travel through the membrane of death, smell cooking
from the encampment where our relatives make a feast of fresh
deer meat and corn soup, in the Milky Way.

They have never left us; we abandoned them for science.

And when you take your next breath as we enter the fifth world
there will be no [i]X[/i], no guidebook with words you can carry.

You will have to navigate by your mother’s voice, renew the song
she is singing.

Fresh courage glimmers from planets.

And lights the map printed with the blood of history, a map you
will have to know by your intention, by the language of suns.

When you emerge note the tracks of the monster slayers where they
entered the cities of artificial light and killed what was killing us.

You will see red cliffs. They are the heart, contain the ladder.

A white deer will greet you when the last human climbs from the
destruction.

Remember the hole of shame marking the act of abandoning our
tribal grounds.

We were never perfect.

Yet, the journey we make together is perfect on this earth who was
once a star and made the same mistakes as humans.

We might make them again, she said.

Crucial to finding the way is this: there is no beginning or end.

You must make your own map.
[/quote]

[b]Discussion Questions[/b] - feel free to stray from these, or comment off of what other people have said.

[b]1.[/b] What feeling/mood do you take away from this poem? Why?

[b]2.[/b] How would you interpret it?

[b]3.[/b] How does the imagery contribute to your interpretation?

[b]4.[/b] [url=https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/joy-harjo]Joy Harjo[/url] has Native American background and her poetry utilizes Native American myths, culture, and stories - is it necessary to have background in those topics to appreciate and understand the poem? Or do you think it's universally accessible?

[i]I'll try to weigh in later, and try to comment a bit on what you all say, but I'll let you all get started first! If you want to skip the discussion questions, pose your own questions, or just talk about your interpretations/ impressions/ what other folks are saying, please feel free - this is informal and the discussion will be open until the end of July. Feel free to comment multiple times and take different perspectives too. I'm excited to hear what you all think of this poem![/i]

Liminality Admin

Liminality · Jul 5, 2020

My internet got disconnected and I lost what I wanted to say D: But I'll try to reconstruct it from memory the best I can. I've only read one of Joy Harjo's works before, and that was "The World Ends at the Dinner Table", but so far I really enjoy her work.

1. Urgency - it's very much a rhetorical poem urging the reader towards social change. I think this comes from the use of the imperative mood, i.e. in "Keep track of . . . Remember . . . ".

Uncertainty - however, at the same time, the speaker seems uncertain as to how that change can be achieved, which is conveyed primarily through the apparent subject of the poem being 'trying to make a map'.

2. The speaker seems to be addressing youth (as seen with "little one") and likely one of their own culture with the reference to "ancestors" and the use of "we". (It could also be taken more universal ly though, since the first line addresses "those who would climb through" as a general group). However, the speaker's ability to say exactly what to do is limited and they eventually pass that responsibility on to the youth.

3. The visceral imagery such as "sea of mother's blood" and "wall of the intestine" suggests needing to look inward to something raw and very human, hence I take this as an intimate address to someone of their own culture.

The contrast between the images of destruction and modern miasma ("flowers of rage" "nuclear anger" "wasted blood") and the oddly whimsical images associated with the 'map' ("sand", "carry fire", finding your ancestors sitting on the "Milky Way") seems to convey the uncertainty of what the next step should be, while knowing that you need to step away from the present reality. The images of the map are unstable, even mysterious, so I interpret that as the speaker's guidance being limited to an extent.

*I also noticed that Harjo also likes to use irony and ironic contrasts between things to suggest the ambivalence or duality in human nature. There's something cheeky about equating "killing fields" with "bedrooms, kitchens" and having "trees" made of "ashes", though I can't quite pinpoint exactly what. The clearest example though is probably "altars . . . best describe the detour from grace".

4. The gist of the poem seems pretty accessible to me, since I think myths from different cultures often share similarities. For example, the idea of having a personal connection to the land that is severed by industrialisation I think is quite universal. Still, it would probably enrich the experience knowing the specific myths Harjo is drawing from. (I suspect the "white deer" could have a symbolic meaning, for instance, and also that the idea of multiple worlds could come from a myth?)

*Something else I'd like to add would be Harjo's use of structural techniques, as in those not to do with word choices or imagery. For instance, the switching of tenses throughout the poem seems to convey the sense that this is a struggle that is present in every age of humanity. I also think the long length of the poem, which switches scenes every few stanzas, seems to reflect how the speaker is struggling to describe what needs to be done. Does anyone else see something similar, e.g. in the enjambment or even the punctuation used?

Well, that's all from me. Thanks to @alliyah for setting up this activity! I'm eager to hear everyone's thoughts.

My internet got disconnected and I lost what I wanted to say D: But I'll try to reconstruct it from memory the best I can. I've only read one of Joy Harjo's works before, and that was "The World Ends at the Dinner Table", but so far I really enjoy her work.

1. Urgency - it's very much a rhetorical poem urging the reader towards social change. I think this comes from the use of the imperative mood, i.e. in "Keep track of . . . Remember . . . ".

Uncertainty - however, at the same time, the speaker seems uncertain as to how that change can be achieved, which is conveyed primarily through the apparent subject of the poem being 'trying to make a map'.

2. The speaker seems to be addressing youth (as seen with "little one") and likely one of their own culture with the reference to "ancestors" and the use of "we". (It could also be taken more universal ly though, since the first line addresses "those who would climb through" as a general group). However, the speaker's ability to say exactly what to do is limited and they eventually pass that responsibility on to the youth.

3. The visceral imagery such as "sea of mother's blood" and "wall of the intestine" suggests needing to look inward to something raw and very human, hence I take this as an intimate address to someone of their own culture.

The contrast between the images of destruction and modern miasma ("flowers of rage" "nuclear anger" "wasted blood") and the oddly whimsical images associated with the 'map' ("sand", "carry fire", finding your ancestors sitting on the "Milky Way") seems to convey the uncertainty of what the next step should be, while knowing that you need to step away from the present reality. The images of the map are unstable, even mysterious, so I interpret that as the speaker's guidance being limited to an extent.

*I also noticed that Harjo also likes to use irony and ironic contrasts between things to suggest the ambivalence or duality in human nature. There's something cheeky about equating "killing fields" with "bedrooms, kitchens" and having "trees" made of "ashes", though I can't quite pinpoint exactly what. The clearest example though is probably "altars . . . best describe the detour from grace".

4. The gist of the poem seems pretty accessible to me, since I think myths from different cultures often share similarities. For example, the idea of having a personal connection to the land that is severed by industrialisation I think is quite universal. Still, it would probably enrich the experience knowing the specific myths Harjo is drawing from. (I suspect the "white deer" could have a symbolic meaning, for instance, and also that the idea of multiple worlds could come from a myth?)

*Something else I'd like to add would be Harjo's use of structural techniques, as in those not to do with word choices or imagery. For instance, the switching of tenses throughout the poem seems to convey the sense that this is a struggle that is present in every age of humanity. I also think the long length of the poem, which switches scenes every few stanzas, seems to reflect how the speaker is struggling to describe what needs to be done. Does anyone else see something similar, e.g. in the enjambment or even the punctuation used?

Well, that's all from me. Thanks to @alliyah for setting up this activity! I'm eager to hear everyone's thoughts. :)

Hijinks Admin

Hijinks · Jul 14, 2020

I've never read any of Joy Harjo's works before, so it was really interesting reading this one! I ended up getting a bit carried away, so I enspoilered my longer answers and gave a quick summary under them.

1.

Spoiler

The main feeling I felt from the poem was a sort of warning or alarm. I also felt like the poem has some bitterness, especially towards the middle, which resolves into hope near the end.

At the start of the poem, the language used feels very matter of fact. The narrator is stating what they're trying to do ("make a map for // those who would climb through the hole in the sky"), how they'll do it (using the "desires of humans"), and how to use it (not to be "read by ordinary light").

Then the poem becomes very dark and unhappy, with descriptions such as fog that "steals our children while we sleep", "flowers of rage", "monsters...of nuclear anger", and "trees of ashes". The narrator goes from perhaps an almost neutral tone, to a sombre, warning tone.

Then, after probably scaring the listener with these warnings, the narrator tries to supply some map or action plan for moving forward into the future. There isn't any forced positivity, and the emotion feels very raw and honest, yet just the implication that there /is/ a future seems to suggest some reason for hope. It feels like there's some resignation or acceptance for the situation. The narrator concedes that "an imperfect map will have to do", and that "we were never perfect", but also says that "fresh courage glimmers from planets".

The poem ends with an almost devastating, but also an inspiring statement: "you must make your own map". Nobody wants to have to stumble through the dark without a guide; they want instructions. But it also leaves so much room for hope and improvement, and empowers the reader with the idea that they have the ability to change the future.

In short: I felt like the poem had a sort of warning tone, and maybe even some slight bitterness. Towards the end, however, it becomes more hopeful. The poem begins in a matter of fact way, simply stating information for the reader - what the narrator wants to do, and how they will do it. As the poem progresses, it grows a lot more negative, using darker imagery such as "steals our children", "anger", "rage", and "trees of ashes". But the narrator gains hope at the end, saying that "fresh courage glimmers from planets". It ends on a very moving line: "you must make your own map". This is perhaps a scary concept but it also leaves the reader with a sense of hope.

2.

Spoiler

At first I thought the poem was about death and coming to terms with it. Partly because of the title - I thought "the Next World" meant whatever comes after death. And I took "climbing through the hole in the sky" to mean leaving the physical world behind for outer space/heaven.

However, when I reached the lines saying to "take note of the proliferation of supermarkets and malls, the // altars of money. They best describe the detour from grace", I realized that this might be more about the modern lifestyle, especially consumerism and our relationship with nature/the environment. Phrases such as "trees of ashes", "tracks of the monster slayers", and "cities of artificial light", seem to imply that at the present we have a negative relationship with the environment. This is compared to how in the past we (the author's ancestors) once knew "the names of the birds", and "everything in this lush promise".

In addition, I think there is some criticism of the general attitude of society - "Flowers of rage spring up in the depression" seems fairly literal; "Monsters are born there of nuclear anger" is a bit less straight forward - I personally interpret this line to be talking about nuclear weapons, and how so much power has the potential to make anyone into a monster.

As a whole, I think the poem is criticizing modern society and advocating for a change in ways, or a new "map" - however it isn't prescribing an answer, it's basically saying that we need to figure out our mess, for ourselves.

In short: I thought at first that the poem was about death, especially because of the title (Next World -> afterlife). However when the poem began describing supermarkets and malls, I realized it might be more about the modern culture and some of its shortcomings, especially consumerism, and our relationship with nature. The narrator contrasts the present to the past: in the present, we have "cities of artifical lights", whereas in the past, we knew "the names of the birds", and "everything in this lush promise" (now forgotten). As a whole, I think the poem is saying that we have to change some stuff about how we're currently living (follow a new map).

3.

Spoiler

The imagery doesn't fall into one particular family, and feels fairly disconnected from one stanza/line to the next. For me, this adds a certain sense of confusion and ambiguity, which fits really well with the style and subject of the poem. There does seem to be a strong emphasis on forgetfulness, though, as she makes a reference to this in several places and through different imagery.

In the legend are instructions on the language of the land, how it
was we forgot to acknowledge the gift, as if we were not in it or of it.

Keep track of the errors of our forgetfulness; the fog steals our
children while we sleep.

We no longer know the names of the birds here, how to speak to
them by their personal names.

What I am telling you is real and is printed in a warning on the
map. Our forgetfulness stalks us, walks the earth behind us, leav-
ing a trail of paper diapers, needles, and wasted blood.

And then, near the end of the poem, a shift:

Remember the hole of shame marking the act of abandoning our
tribal grounds.

This use of language emphasizes the contrast between the past and the present, and creates a sense of nostalgia on the narrator's part. I also think using this repetition of the words "forget" and "forgetfulness" gives a sort of connection between all the disjointed imagery.

In short: The imagery is pretty disconnected, which I feel complements the subject really well. A sense of continuity was created though, through repeating the words "forgetting" and "forgetfulness". This focus on forgetfulness also emphasized how things have changed from the past and creates a feeling of nostalgia. Towards the end of the poem she switches to "remember", which changes the mood subtly and ends on a more hopeful, future-oriented note.

4.
I think that anyone can understand and appreciate the poem, because she uses very expressive language and imagery that can stand on its own. However, there are instances where an understanding of Native American legends would add to your experience of reading the poem. As @Liminality mentioned, the "white deer" probably references a legend, and understanding what it was referring to would add to your understanding of that line. But overall, I think you can definitely still appreciate and enjoy the poem regardless of your background.

-
Liminality you mentioned structure, which I thought was really interesting! At first glance the poem seems to be lacking much structure and feels pretty loose and almost rambling, but I did notice that in several places she used line breaks really deliberately.

Trees of ashes wave good-bye to good-bye and the map appears to
disappear.

^In this pair of lines, which could very well have just been one line, she decides to break it up into two lines, the second of which is only one word. I think it could be to highlight the contradicting nature of words "appears" and "disappear", but that's just one possible reason!

What I am telling you is real and is printed in a warning on the
map. Our forgetfulness stalks us, walks the earth behind us, leav-
ing a trail of paper diapers, needles, and wasted blood.

^In this section, I think it's really interesting that she divided up "leaving" between two lines. I'm not entirely sure why, I'd love to hear if anyone else has any ideas!

Whew! I think I'm out of things to say

I honestly had way too much fun doing this - I know Liminality already said this, but thank you so much @alliyah for organizing this!!

I've never read any of Joy Harjo's works before, so it was really interesting reading this one! I ended up getting a bit carried away, so I enspoilered my longer answers and gave a quick summary under them.

[b]1. [/b]
[spoiler]The main feeling I felt from the poem was a sort of warning or alarm. I also felt like the poem has some bitterness, especially towards the middle, which resolves into hope near the end.

At the start of the poem, the language used feels very matter of fact. The narrator is stating what they're trying to do ("make a map for // those who would climb through the hole in the sky"), how they'll do it (using the "desires of humans"), and how to use it (not to be "read by ordinary light").

Then the poem becomes very dark and unhappy, with descriptions such as fog that "steals our children while we sleep", "flowers of rage", "monsters...of nuclear anger", and "trees of ashes". The narrator goes from perhaps an almost neutral tone, to a sombre, warning tone.

Then, after probably scaring the listener with these warnings, the narrator tries to supply some map or action plan for moving forward into the future. There isn't any forced positivity, and the emotion feels very raw and honest, yet just the implication that there /is/ a future seems to suggest some reason for hope. It feels like there's some resignation or acceptance for the situation. The narrator concedes that "an imperfect map will have to do", and that "we were never perfect", but also says that "fresh courage glimmers from planets".

The poem ends with an almost devastating, but also an inspiring statement: "you must make your own map". Nobody wants to have to stumble through the dark without a guide; they want instructions. But it also leaves so much room for hope and improvement, and empowers the reader with the idea that they have the ability to change the future.[/spoiler]
[u]In short:[/u] I felt like the poem had a sort of warning tone, and maybe even some slight bitterness. Towards the end, however, it becomes more hopeful. The poem begins in a matter of fact way, simply stating information for the reader - what the narrator wants to do, and how they will do it. As the poem progresses, it grows a lot more negative, using darker imagery such as "steals our children", "anger", "rage",  and "trees of ashes".  But the narrator gains hope at the end, saying that "fresh courage glimmers from planets". It ends on a very moving line: "you must make your own map". This is perhaps a scary concept but it also leaves the reader with a sense of hope.

[b]2. [/b]
[spoiler]At first I thought the poem was about death and coming to terms with it. Partly because of the title - I thought "the Next World" meant whatever comes after death. And I took "climbing through the hole in the sky" to mean leaving the physical world behind for outer space/heaven.

However, when I reached the lines saying to "take note of the proliferation of supermarkets and malls, the // altars of money. They best describe the detour from grace", I realized that this might be more about the modern lifestyle, especially consumerism and our relationship with nature/the environment. Phrases such as "trees of ashes", "tracks of the monster slayers", and "cities of artificial light", seem to imply that at the present we have a negative relationship with the environment. This is compared to how in the past we (the author's ancestors) once knew "the names of the birds", and "everything in this lush promise".

In addition, I think there is some criticism of the general attitude of society - "Flowers of rage spring up in the depression" seems fairly literal; "Monsters are born there of nuclear anger" is a bit less straight forward - I personally interpret this line to be talking about nuclear weapons, and how so much power has the potential to make anyone into a monster.

As a whole, I think the poem is criticizing modern society and advocating for a change in ways, or a new "map" - however it isn't prescribing an answer, it's basically saying that we need to figure out our mess, for ourselves. [/spoiler]
[u]In short:[/u] I thought at first that the poem was about death, especially because of the title (Next World -> afterlife). However when the poem began describing supermarkets and malls, I realized it might be more about the modern culture and some of its shortcomings, especially consumerism, and our relationship with nature. The narrator contrasts the present to the past: in the present, we have "cities of artifical lights", whereas in the past, we knew "the names of the birds", and "everything in this lush promise" (now forgotten). As a whole, I think the poem is saying that we have to change some stuff about how we're currently living (follow a new map).

[b]3. [/b]
[spoiler]The imagery doesn't fall into one particular family, and feels fairly disconnected from one stanza/line to the next. For me, this adds a certain sense of confusion and ambiguity, which fits really well with the style and subject of the poem. There does seem to be a strong emphasis on forgetfulness, though, as she makes a reference to this in several places and through different imagery. 
[quote]In the legend are instructions on the language of the land, how it
was [b]we forgot[/b] to acknowledge the gift, as if we were not in it or of it.[/quote]
[quote]Keep track of the errors of [b]our forgetfulness[/b]; the fog steals our
children while we sleep.[/quote]
[quote][b]We no longer know [/b] the names of the birds here, how to speak to
them by their personal names.[/quote]
[quote]What I am telling you is real and is printed in a warning on the
map. [b]Our forgetfulness[/b] stalks us, walks the earth behind us, leav-
ing a trail of paper diapers, needles, and wasted blood.[/quote]
And then, near the end of the poem, a shift:
[quote][b]Remember[/b] the hole of shame marking the act of abandoning our
tribal grounds.[/quote]
This use of language emphasizes the contrast between the past and the present, and creates a sense of nostalgia on the narrator's part. I also think using this repetition of the words "forget" and "forgetfulness" gives a sort of connection between all the disjointed imagery. [/spoiler]
[u]In short:[/u] The imagery is pretty disconnected, which I feel complements the subject really well. A sense of continuity was created though, through repeating the words "forgetting" and "forgetfulness". This focus on forgetfulness also emphasized how things have changed from the past and creates a feeling of nostalgia. Towards the end of the poem she switches to "remember", which changes the mood subtly and ends on a more hopeful, future-oriented note.

[b]4. [/b]
I think that anyone can understand and appreciate the poem, because she uses very expressive language and imagery that can stand on its own. However, there are instances where an understanding of Native American legends would add to your experience of reading the poem. As @Liminality mentioned, the "white deer" probably references a legend, and understanding what it was referring to would add to your understanding of that line. But overall, I think you can definitely still appreciate and enjoy the poem regardless of your background.

[b]-[/b]
Liminality you mentioned structure, which I thought was really interesting! At first glance the poem seems to be lacking much structure and feels pretty loose and almost rambling, but I did notice that in several places she used line breaks really deliberately.  
[quote]Trees of ashes wave good-bye to good-bye and the map appears to
disappear.[/quote]
^In this pair of lines, which could very well have just been one line, she decides to break it up into two lines, the second of which is only one word. I think it could be to highlight the contradicting nature of words "appears" and "disappear", but that's just one possible reason!
[quote]What I am telling you is real and is printed in a warning on the
map. Our forgetfulness stalks us, walks the earth behind us, leav-
ing a trail of paper diapers, needles, and wasted blood.[/quote]
^In this section, I think it's really interesting that she divided up "leaving" between two lines. I'm not entirely sure why, I'd love to hear if anyone else has any ideas!

Whew! I think I'm out of things to say (: I honestly had way too much fun doing this - I know Liminality already said this, but thank you so much @alliyah for organizing this!!

alliyah Admin

alliyah · Aug 3, 2020

@whatchamacallit & @Liminality I loved what both of you had to say about this and I'm sorry that my reply has been so slow because I really wanted to respond earlier!!!

use of uncomfortable irony to highlight disconnect & harm done
^ This is my favorite strategy that Harjo uses, that I think Liminality definitely is getting at with noting the strange tension between "warning & uncertainty" as well as her seemingly contradictory imagery.

If I can really over-interpret for a second here - I see Harjo's usage of imagery that almost doesn't make sense as a deliberate reclaiming and throwing away of imagery that has been stolen from her in the same way that Native Americans might reclaim the idea of "spirit animals" from the white-washed version or try to reclaim their relationship with the land, I actually wonder if it is purposely inaccessible. This also goes with her comments on the language changing so much that "We no longer know the names of the birds here," which is one of my favorite lines in the piece!

I like both of your points about reading in other cultural images metaphors into the poem can make it accessible for others. I also kind of like the idea of a poem about the way her ancestral land has been stolen being inaccessible for some though, as this does feel like she's poetically turning the tables. I am really curious how I would feel about this poem if it didn't have her name attached to it and I just saw it in a book - I think for me it's really hard not to read some of her other work into this in particular other poems that deal with murder / death.

The main feeling I get from the poem is just a huge sense of loss, in that whatever way they used to be able to relate, survive, find their ways to the stars has been lost - > but it ends on a positive note that maybe the solution isn't just reclaiming, but is rewriting - in making a new map altogether which is potentially controversial advise to give to someone who seems to be concerned with the continuation of culture - but I think the point is that has to be done by more than memory and survival but moving forward.

Line breaks / form
@whatchamacallit this might be ridiculous but maybe the break in "leav / ing" was supposed to be an almost pun of "leafs" which would go with the paper (trees), needles (pine-needles) motif going on. Or maybe she wanted the line to leave a piece of itself behind ~

cultural imagery
I'm really curious about that white deer image too. One other image that I thought might be inaccessible is the reference to "monsters born of nuclear anger" - this might not be well known, but many native american reservations are now being paid to be dumping grounds for Nuclear Waste in the United States - which is just particularly horrible that we've forced so much poverty on to a people, that we now are trying to ruin the last thing the country hasn't taken - and with the Native American connection of land being sacred, again it's just particularly awful, and so just the choice to use "nuclear" as the adjective is a small detail to make it even worse.

I wish I knew more about what the fourth / fifth world was referencing - maybe I'll do some google-searches later if I get a chance

structure
I don't have anything to add on your comments on the structure, but I think you both made really smart points there. There do seem to be a lot of odd line breaks, and I don't really know what to make of them.

Thanks for taking the time to comment and interpret!

(side note, I almost accidentally deleted this whole message, and then had to google how to restore deleted text -> it's ctrl+z thank goodness that just about gave me a heart attack)

@whatchamacallit & @liminality I loved what both of you had to say about this and I'm sorry that my reply has been so slow because I really wanted to respond earlier!!!

[b]use of uncomfortable irony to highlight disconnect & harm done[/b]
^ This is my favorite strategy that Harjo uses, that I think Liminality definitely is getting at with noting the strange tension between "warning & uncertainty" as well as her seemingly contradictory imagery.

If I can really over-interpret for a second here - I see Harjo's usage of imagery that almost doesn't make sense as a deliberate reclaiming and throwing away of imagery that has been stolen from her in the same way that Native Americans might reclaim the idea of "spirit animals" from the white-washed version or try to reclaim their relationship with the land, I actually wonder if it is [i]purposely inaccessible[/i]. This also goes with her comments on the language changing so much that "We no longer know the names of the birds here," which is one of my favorite lines in the piece!

I like both of your points about reading in other cultural images metaphors into the poem can make it accessible for others. I also kind of like the idea of a poem about the way her ancestral land has been stolen being inaccessible for some though, as this does feel like she's poetically turning the tables. I am really curious how I would feel about this poem if it didn't have her name attached to it and I just saw it in a book - I think for me it's really hard not to read some of her other work into this in particular other poems that deal with murder / death.

The main feeling I get from the poem is just a huge sense of loss, in that whatever way they used to be able to relate, survive, find their ways to the stars has been lost - > but it ends on a positive note that maybe the solution isn't just reclaiming, but is rewriting - in making a new map altogether which is potentially controversial advise to give to someone who seems to be concerned with the continuation of culture - but I think the point is that has to be done by more than memory and survival but moving forward.

[b]Line breaks / form[/b]
@whatchamacallit this might be ridiculous but maybe the break in "leav / ing" was supposed to be an almost pun of "leafs" which would go with the paper (trees), needles (pine-needles) motif going on. Or maybe she wanted the line to leave a piece of itself behind ~

[b]cultural imagery[/b]
I'm really curious about that white deer image too. One other image that I thought might be inaccessible is the reference to "monsters born of nuclear anger" - this might not be well known, but many native american reservations are now being paid to be dumping grounds for Nuclear Waste in the United States - which is just particularly horrible that we've forced so much poverty on to a people, that we now are trying to ruin the last thing the country hasn't taken - and with the Native American connection of land being sacred, again it's just particularly awful, and so just the choice to use "nuclear" as the adjective is a small detail to make it even worse.

I wish I knew more about what the fourth / fifth world was referencing - maybe I'll do some google-searches later if I get a chance :)

[b]structure[/b]
I don't have anything to add on your comments on the structure, but I think you both made really smart points there. There do seem to be a lot of odd line breaks, and I don't really know what to make of them.

Thanks for taking the time to comment and interpret!

(side note, I almost accidentally deleted this whole message, and then had to google how to restore deleted text -> it's ctrl+z  thank goodness that just about gave me a heart attack)

Joy Harjo, A Map to the Next World

About / Info

Forums & RPG

Literary

Resources