Young Writers Society

Epic Fantasy is dead.

Not in the sense that it isn't written in the main stream any more, like dark romanticism (if anyone knows any modern works, please tell me), or transcendentalism, but dead in the way that there is no new information being put out there. I feel like every fantasy world out there now revolves around the same base elements invented by Tolkien all those years ago. There always has to be some great sword of power, and some ring that could control all the power in the world. In all fairness this is only tolerable in Tolkien because he invented it. He was the first. But after fifty years it would seem that we would learn to include something new.

Elves are still high and mighty, and it seems that they spend all of their time singing. There is still the peasant boy, or reluctant hero, who in the end overcomes impossible odds to bring down the Dark Lord who is trying to destroy the world because he really has nothing better to do. This is old now.

Im tired of the angsty and reluctant hero who whines throughout the whole story and all of his companions are only there for comedic relief or some other superficial purpose.

There are some authors who do not follow this mold, and they are all the better for it, but there are remarkably few. Most of these authors find themselves in some other sub-genre of fiction as well, like historical fantasy, like Martin, or comedic fantasy like Pratchett. What happened to the Epic Fantasy?

I would love to read Epic Fantasy again, but right now i can't stomach it. I'm alway enthralled by the simple description authors give on the cover, but after twenty pages i discover its more of the same, and I know I just wasted my money, because I will never finish it. I want an epic tale of bravery that still has the feel of Tolkein, and Jordan, and Goodkind, but with something new. All of the deep characters and motivations and reality of Martin with the fantasy of Salvatore and all the others. It may be impossible to do, and it may not come for a long time, but I hope with all my heart that it will.

I would also like to see interpretive fantasy. Fantasy with a purpose. Fantasy with meaning hidden in the words for the careful reader. It would be nice, but it is not the purpose of fantasy. Fantasy's purpose has always been to entertain, not to say anything very important, and that is one reason we love it, but if it ever did both it would serve to make most of my dreams come true.

Anyways, thats most of what I have to say. I might bring up other points, or things I have problems with, but for now lets hear what you think, about any topic really, as long as it results to some change in fantasy, for better or worse.

Rant inspired by these.

?

Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire is epic fantasy, though.

This isn't true.

I'm sure Omar (Jiggity) will see this soon and refer you to his blog that had a good entry dealing with this sort of misconception on the current state of fantasy.

And Sureal's right. GRRM's work is epic fantasy, and has all the things you want. There's also plenty of other authors out there doing the same thing.

Admittedly, there are some dry pieces of fantasy such as what you describe, but to view the entire fantasy genre as succumbing to this is silly. I have read a few books that deal with archetypes poorly and make my eyes burn. I have read a greater majority of fantasy books that are fresh, well-written and wonderful. Try some Janny Wurts, some Robin Hobb, some Alison Croggon. Want something funky and completely different? The Curse of Chalion by Lois McMaster Bujold.

All writing is in a dialogue with other writing, so yes, many elements carry over between books, but to say that the vast majority of fantasy fiction is saturated by a dry mold Tolkien set in place strikes me as silly.

I would also like to see interpretive fantasy. Fantasy with a purpose. Fantasy with meaning hidden in the words for the careful reader. It would be nice, but it is not the purpose of fantasy. Fantasy's purpose has always been to entertain, not to say anything very important, and that is one reason we love it, but if it ever did both it would serve to make most of my dreams come true.

Eh, I shan't rant about this here, but in a lot of ways, fantasy does much more than entertain. New worlds and races that parallel and contrast our own provide wonderful looking glasses through which to see societal and personal issues. This is actually the field of fantasy that I am experimenting in as a writer, but I think it is folly to say most fantasy does not say anything important.

Then it is possible that I have simply not been introduced to the greater works of fantasy out there, and left to my own devices I have simply found those books that frustrate me, or I have simply ignored those that are original. I do prefer darker stuff, more like Martin than humorous stories like Pratchett's.

I have found several works that have some parallel to our own, like the Witcher series, where elves and dwarves are slaves to their human masters, but that is about as far as I have found.

Yes Martin's work is epic fantasy, but to me it seems more based on a historical model of Europe that on the fantastic found in other things, but I am not denying that it is epic fantasy.

Eh, I don't agree. There are bad, cliched fantasy pieces, but you shouldn't put fantasy all into one category. For every five bad fantasy authors or so, there is about three good ones, and it is with their original ideas that the fantasy genre will continue to survive and flourish.

like i said before, my pool to draw from must be narrow for some reason or another

I am quickly beginning to think fantasy has hit a point because of the lack of development. Hopefully it will not go the way of the Western, but that is because it requires only to be creative, and not have a set setting or style. Fantasy truly needs to rediscover itself, it has been too long since we had good fantasy.

I think the problem here is that you've taken the genre of epic fantasy, but then reclassified the really good ones (like Martin) as something else to support your central thesis that epic fantasy itself is dead. Even Hero's Journey epic fantasy like Goodkind and Jordan and Eddings and Brooks, which I associate more with the 90s, is still alive, unfortunately. Pat Rothfuss hit the NYT bestseller list recently with his Hero's Journey epic fantasy THE NAME OF THE WIND.

If I might recommend a couple of other epic fantasies, you could try Joe Abercrombie's THE FIRST LAW trilogy for gleeful abuse and subversion of familiar tropes, and Kate Elliott's CROWN OF STARS trilogy, for the epic scope of a Jordan series (except slightly more restrained) with a ton more grittiness.

(The fantasy subgenre that's selling right now is urban fantasy slash paranormal romance. That's what writers are writing, publishers are publishing and readers are reading. Take a look at the bestseller lists some time - you'll see Charlaine Harris and Sherrilyn Kenyon.)

ridersofdamar wrote:like i said before, my pool to draw from must be narrow for some reason or another

Then why did you post a topic about this? I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but you should really wait untill you know you know alot about a topic before you post a rant about something like this.

Urgh. Refer you to my blog? I think not. I'm so tired of idiocy and posts like this only serve to infuriate me, they're so laden with ignorance. I don't even want to educate you on the finer points of Fantasy, or the great works that are out there, or on just how wrong you really are. Fantasy is better off without your skewed perception.

I didnt mean to offend anyone. I like fantasy, and I used to read it all the time. But every time I go to the book story what I see in the fantasy section all seems the same. I see a lot of the new hardback novels that are out there with the same art style and a rouphly similar plot. I do live in a large city, so it may be that all the book stores near me only cater to the audience that enjoys that kind of thing, I don't know, but there has been little to show ME otherwise. I realize that most of you know good, modern, fantasy authors, but in my experience at the book stores I haven't found any. Thats all im trying to say. Sorry if anyone was offended, it really wasn't my intention.

lol, don't worry about Jiggity. He's just rather ... passionate about the subject.

No need to apologize! This just means I get to throw some good book recommendations at you!

I'd greatly appreciate it. Othello is getting boring, and I'm tired of re-reading my old books.