Young Writers Society

Aley envisioned a place where poets could gather to discuss, develop, describe, and dream up poems and all things related. This thread is a monument to the power of collaboration, a tackle box for the acquisition of new poetry tools and ideas, and an incubation chamber for struggling seeds of new works. It is largely what you make of it.

Current Discussion

Having trouble finding where to jump in? Want to know where the discussion you're interested in starts? Below, find a list of major themes from discussions, their starting pages, and links for easy navigation.

* Writer v. Self -- from page one
* Societal Pressures on Love -- from page one
* Where Poets Start -- from page two

Proposed Challenges / Prompts

Not quite ready for discussion yourself, but you'd like to take advantage of the juiciest morsels your cohorts have rustled up through brain-picking? Check out some of the posts below.

* Destroy Your Censor -- from page one

Our Results

Are you interested in seeing what comes out of this process? Linked below, find poems resulting from discussion, ideas, prompts, or themes from this thread. Continue the discussion by diving in to review works by your fellow Creation Chamberists.

[url=work]Title by Author[/url]
[url=work]Title by Author[/url]

Writer Vs Self Discussion

So, to get this thing on the road I'll suggest something to talk about. Audy should be posting something too if you don't want to talk about this one.

When writing anything, poetry, prose, short stories, etc, it can be a very revealing process. The exposure of the raw emotions and honesty of writing can make it both traumatizing, and therapeutic. I'm going to call this Writer Vs Self because I think that it really deals with how we have to fight with ourselves to be open enough to get the full effects of writing.

How do you see writing?

Societal Pressures on Love

I was toying with this idea of platonic love that could be useful for February's Contest that is going on. I have some great friends whom I love to death, but oftentimes the pressures of society and coupling people up can devastate or confuse these types of friendships ;c In my experiences, it's like I'm in the setting of a battlefield, where there are political and social things going on in the background (gay/lesbian relationships, open relationships, casual relationships, marriages!) and it's all trying to tug at me and my own friendships/lovelife.

Does anyone have any similar experiences or things they want to add to this idea? How can we express these feelings or experiences through poetry? And what are some good metaphors?



In response to Writer Vs Self:
In many ways, whenever I write something, there's always an element of opening myself and dissecting my own feelings about such topics. A lot of times, I find that I'm also dealing with my own issues, my flaws, and things I don't normally share with people or things I won't like them to see. I don't ever like to be thought of as vulnerable, and yet, that's exactly the state I'm in whenever I write an emotional work. It's almost like slicing myself up into pieces and making a character evolve out of those pieces.

But in many ways, this sort of thing is what makes writers such cool people, and this sort of thing is therapeutic for many. As a writer, and especially as a poet, you want to write truths. You have to know yourself, and through that, know people. Know humans. The human condition, it's what writing's all about.

So that's how you see a lot of poems that touch upon this idea of opening yourself up through writing (obviously, there are so many new ways, new perspectives, and new directions to take this idea!) Here's "Digging" by Seamus Heaney. He uses this writer vs self idea and connects it with heritage and his roots through this digging metaphor.

Societal Pressure on Love

I actually find this a very interesting topic to discuss. I think it it is kind of the reverse of a friendzone, one where there actually is no romantic passion involved in the relationship, just strictly camaraderie and a deep intimate knowledge of each other. For me, this is every relationship I have. Even if I was sexually attracted to one of my friends, it was lost over time and few of them remained to maintain a deep intimate relationship that was platonic. I think the easiest way to express this in poetry might be to use a situation where romantic passion was not involved in the original relationship, such as a friendship between a cat and a human. Or a cat and a dog even if that would put things on a more equal surface. Doing something like this would give the reader a chance to really see the relationship before they related it to humans.

Writer Vs Self

I think that poem is a good example of how things are better read in private than in public. It is amazing how words have changed over the years and the secret innuendos that show up.

I like your point that he was using poetry to help unearth his heritage, but I think that heritage is easier to uproot outside of writing and researching things. He couldn't have written that poem without knowing where his father was from. For me, I feel more open when I haven't done that much research on a topic and I use the poem to sort of wash ideas back and forth. I am left vulnerable by pulling emotions out of the words I can use, whether it is an experience I have had or not. If I can't make myself feel something with a poem, and I cannot fall into the image, the character, I create, then I know that others won't be able to and the poem has failed in a crucial sense.

First I have to say I think it is very important for poets to examine writer vs. Self during the editing process to illuminate where associations came from and why things were written. By getting a handle on themselves objectively they can see the pieces of the poem and reasons instead of a big mess of emotion that can't be touched without getting burned. Absolutely everything we say is skewed by our biases so if we can examine them we can see what is objective meat and what is where the poetry came in.

Thanks for sharing that poem, too, Audy. I feel like the personal realization and conflict was so strong that it could easily help a reader reflect on himself or herself the same way
Which is what I like best about any writing. I can partially live another life through evokesd thoughts or emotions.

Reblogged for Writer vs. Self:

It's my perspective that, unless a writer intentionally cuts himself out of his poetry/writing, then he is allowing his subconscious into the work, but not always in terms of subject matter or composition. For a personal example, most of my poetry is written in a slow, prosaic free-form that draws time out of words that wasn't there before. In this way, my subconscious is in the piece in the form of my ideal thought process - slow, drawing of time that should not be, etc. - and how I ultimately wish situations could be handled.

A counterpoint to this comes from poet/lyricist Brendan Urie - who can adapt his lines (and, by extension his music) to any style or content he spills from a pen. For that, I often wonder if it's quite as easy as it seems from the outside. I've detached myself from works before, but it resulted in very dry poetry. Any suggestions for bettering this?


Reblogged for Societal Pressures on Love

My ideal metaphor for relationships comes from Homestuck. Consider Moiraillegience, which tangents near the limits of platonic love and pseudo-romantic soulmateship.

Writer vs. Self

I do feel like you have this war going on. Sometimes it's hard for me to give the reader all the details because I write about my personal experiences, and I am scared that whomever I wrote it about will see it and figure out that is was about him. I would be in some trouble. so I choose to leave the obvious things that happened so that I don't have to talk about it to this person it's about. is very hard for me to write very, descriptive, things in my poetry therefore.

@ Lumi

who can adapt his lines (and, by extension his music) to any style or content he spills from a pen.

I don't understand what this means, Lumi. What precisely does he change? It seems like he's creating and creating at the same time, which doesn't necessarily mean removing himself from anything, but I think it's just the way you wrote it that I don't understand.

I do, however, get that you're asking how to detach yourself from works. Other than what I already suggested, which was really taking an extremely self-analytic look at the piece: "where did this allusion come from? why did I add it?" and getting an objective hold on it that way, just by tearing apart your own feelings from your own words, I'd also say to remember that just because it appears someone's detached from their work doesn't mean they are.

I find that in writing about unfamiliar subjects, the only way to get any reality is to relate it to something I do know. Which is the reason we use metaphors. To get something abstract more concrete, something concrete more abstract, something we can't understand in terms we can.


@ Lylas

I think that in doing that you're taking the life force out of your poetry. I love specifics. Specifics are what let me get into your life. Say "there's a woman sitting in a room" and it's so VAGUE it could be ANYTHING, but say "there's a woman sitting on a futon in a room" and in just that SINGLE detail, we have a glimpse into her life. She's the kinda girl who'd buy a futon. Put a laptop in her lap, and we give her more. Tell me the color of her hair and I can see her because her face is surrounded by the details you gave me. Take all of that away and it means absolutely nothing to me.

Say that woman were you. If you said "there's a woman sitting in a room", YOU'D feel emotion, because you'd see yourself in your head. You'd know what image you wanted to evoke for yourself, but the reader has absolutely no idea from the vagueness you've given them.

That's a problem I've really had with works before. I never know what I alone see because I am imagining it before translating into text and what the reader can see with me. I have to keep myself super aware of that to be successful.

@Hannah

but don't you understand why I can not? maybe after he finds out I will make it more descriptive...

Haha, I guess I understand, but I'd put art above my potential embarrassment. I wouldn't want anyone to censor my creativity, since it's hard enough battling myself to let things out purely.

On that note, censorship has always, always interested me.
What things do you not write poems about, and why?
I think I actively avoid mentioning technology and trying to tackle stories or characters that deal with events revolving around cell phones, computers, online relationships, etc. I think there was a time I didn't even think modern language had a place in my poetry (when I wanted to do all forms and use the language I'd picked up in English class from Shakespeare, etc.), so I might come around to finding a palatable way to do this...


I hereby propose a challenge.

Name your censor and defeat it.

W v S

In this way, my subconscious is in the piece in the form of my ideal thought process - slow, drawing of time that should not be, etc. - and how I ultimately wish situations could be handled.

Oh, I definitely think that if you go about writing a piece from your perspective, drawing upon your emotions, or if you're trying to form a scene or image as seen through your eyes, then you will undoubtedly be expressing it through your own voice. Your vernacular, your diction, your breaths, all of these things, even the *way* we describe things kind of mirror the way we think about things.

If someone asks you: describe a remote. You'll have people who say - well, it's shiny, it's got buttons, it's rectangular. Then you have those who say, well it's the thing that turns on your tv. Then you get those really cool people who say - well, the damn thing's useless as it's always getting lost beneath the couch cushions.

So, I think the first thing when you're trying to NOT write like yourself is to change your perspective and look at things in a different way/tackle things differently. (I also think this is good for just creative practice in general) If you see love in a positive or ideal light; look at it in a negative or realistic light. Do you describe a scene from the outside and take it in; try looking at it from the inside going out.

When you boil down to it, well, writing is just communication - it's just presenting information. So, how do we present that information?

That kind of thing calls for a hyperawareness of little things such as mannerisms and quirks, body language, and speech - it also calls for huge imagination, of getting into a person's shoes, or a person's perspective and wondering why and how those little things come about.

Myself for instance, nostalgia is a friend of mine. I am very much a "live in the past", old-soul type of person, and the future is nothing that I like to think about. And the way that I think or talk, is going to mirror this. My brain thinks by looking back and recollecting, remembering. She's a Historian brain who likes to learn from prior experiences or make sense of it and will recall things I've done, or have heard or read, just knowledge or factoids I've picked up and figure out how it all fits into the things going in my life presently.

So, my poems tend to go all over the place. And just this post alone, you have languages, remote controls, things I might've picked up from an acting class, earlier you had Seamus Heaney & Irish heritage which I'm sure was an analysis paper of mine 2 years ago, my brain reads the topic, automatically comes up with the connections, and I've got to consciously make sense of it thanks a lot, brain

So, I very much see the merit of what Hannah was talking about earlier. When you ask yourself - well why am I so long-winded? What am I actually talking about when I make a post? (well I have an explosion of an ideas and I wanna talk about them all at once) and why? (well, I guess my brain likes to think about everything I've ever heard of) and why? (well, I guess I just want to make use of those things) and why?

Be a kid and play the why game with yourself. And when you know your own perspective, be a kid and play the why game with the world. Get into someone's shoes. *goes to analyze Hannah's thought patterns*


@Lylas, I recommend just writing with the intention that he will never see it. Or to begin with the aspects of him that fits with your story and change everything else. For instance, if I'm writing about my assistant manager - I'm going to possibly write about his personality. (He's a diva-type) and so I'll prolly change everything else; ethnicity, age, maybe even gender. This helps to create that distance while still promoting creativity.

Censorship

I love this. I guess I just never thought about, well what will I not do? I tend to want to write about things that make an impact on me, or things that interest me (there's a surprising lack of sports in my writing. Hum) I guess the reason we censor things in general is because we don't technically "agree" with it, so as human beings we want to ignore or avoid it.

It's always funny when you read those novels that were published in the early 2000s and you wonder - well come on? Why didn't the character just use a cell phone? Or why didn't he look this information up on a computer? And you have plot holes galore xD I kind of wonder why we don't see more of this, and just maybe I'm thinking there's this avoidance thing that is happening on a wider scale

>.>; Man I need to keep a better eye on this place. Alright, I'll do this as close to order as I can.

W v. S
I can completely see where you're coming from Lylas and I agree with Hannah, don't let it stop you. The best way to 'hide' in plane sight is simply to say: This poem isn't about me, it is not me speaking it is the narrator/speaker. and they will have no grounds to counter that because in reality, when you're working with poetry from 'famous' people, you have to look at it from the perspective of a narrator vs the speaker.

For me this can still be just as damaging to myself because when I write from another person's perspective, I have to explain myself to them and let them talk about it from their perspective. I'm not a willingly open person, so opening up even to my own imagined character can be quite hard. I think that's one of the reasons why I deal with ideals that are always larger than just me sitting somewhere and why I can do things like drown my character in Meat Suit. It is the best way for me to write though because I can separate myself from how I want to express things and explore an alternate point of view.

Lumi, I think considering yourself as purely the method that the words come through, and not looking at it as something as personal as you're suggesting will help separate you from your poetry in a way that will allow you to write in a different method. You could also try using a strict form such as the villanelle or the sonnet and use that to kind of break you out of the typical pattern you've been using. I kind of see the strict poetic structures as challenges. They are there to help improve you and if you can write a poem that is still good and still you, even in this strict structure, then you've got something going for you. The most fun poems with strict structure are those complaining about the structure they're in.

Censorship

It is really funny when you have things like Twilight where she uses the internet to look up something, but she doesn't use Wikipedia and she has to look up 'pail skin, avoids light' as symptoms when we are all well aware of VAMPIRES. This type of thing makes me want to bash a desk to my head instead of my head meeting the desk.

For me I think the thing I avoid in poetry is actually dealing with things that I am struggling with in my own personal mind and exposing my thoughts to light instead of looking for something similar to talk about. I'm not sure how I'll be able to break through that when so many thoughts are all over the place, but I'll do my best. Just forgive me if it seems really dark. x.x;

AUDY! You didn't tell us what you censor out, just why you think things are censored, come on and fess up.

Hey guys, I would really like to see what you could get out of this. It needs some more intimate help. Warning: It is a villanelle and I want to stick to that structure.

Tell me not your tale of woe,
For I have no time to see;
That tale my ears will never know.

In my field you did sow
Sweet ignorance over me
Tell me not your tale of woe.

This story you believe becomes my foe
as you try to make me be
That tale my ears will never know.

I bound away a sacred doe
Your prey before your midday tea
Tell me not your tale of woe

The arrow looses from your bow,
And with all my strength, I flee
That tale my ears will never know.

I beg you please now just to go
For you have brought me to my knee.
Tell me not your tale of woe,
That tale my ears will never know.

I'm having a hard time understanding the reviews I'm getting. I don't know if it's because of the structure and people wanting to be all -NO! NO STRUCTURE IS BAD!~ or if it's because I am just that bad at writing in structures myself.

@ Aley

So you mentioned in our chat bar something I want to bring in here, which is how to work in a structure. You said you felt like you couldn't really play with the structure of a villanelle until you'd mastered the basic form. And you also mentioned being upset that others didn't recognize the form but attributed it to you rather than you playing within a structure.

I think you are working at too much of a distance from your words on account of the structure. You seem to continually talk about it as "a structure" and then "my poem". Not together as "my poem in this structure". Do you feel that way?

I also want to know what inspired you to want to do a villanelle. Was it just that you craved structure and chose the first pretty-easy one that came to you? Or was it something about the description in the Wikipedia page you linked another reviewer to beneath your work?

How to work in a Structure
@ Hannah

I'll respond to this bottom up.
Why I craved the villanelle was not because of the need for a structure, or the need for something from the Wiki page, instead I was missing a particular poem I re-read and I wanted to see more of them around. I tried to get Audy to write one, and she refused, so I did it.

I see what you're talking about with wanting a structure instead of a poem, and I do feel that this poem is really about the structure instead of poetry because it didn't go through all of the rigors thought processes I have when I'm trying to come up with something I would consider 'mine' such as what do I want the reader to get from this? What will be my general setting? Who am I talking to? and those basic things. Instead, I did this almost as a free-write, although I did know that I wanted something where the last stanza's two lines would change their meaning from the beginning. I started this poem over at least 5 times just trying to come up with the right feel for the lines until I just put my thoughts to paper smoothly within the structure without struggling for my words.

For me, it is imperative that you master a craft before you break it's laws. It is like a right of passage to be able to follow the rules and once you have passed, you can break them. If you do not follow the rules to begin with, than there is nothing helping you understand why they are there. Pushing the boundaries within the rules is important so that when you break them, you will know the effect and understand it implicitly. At least that's how I see rules and structures.
I challenged myself with this villanelle to change the meaning of the two lines together vs apart, and I have failed, so now I must rework things in the structure to get at that one thing I was trying to understand about the villanelle.
So far, I know that I need a more ambiguous sentence in order to allow the mental change when reading the last line. Also in this poem, I played with how the line could attach to the one before it and complete a sentence-This is something I have known. I seem to have failed in bringing forth that craft though as someone commented they didn't like it, so I also need to look at sacrificing that or changing it.

These things all distract me from looking at the poem as 'my poem' like you said, but I feel that for this craft, I want to understand it better to incorporate it into 'my work' kind of like an art study would do in painting or drawing.