Young Writers Society

Ok i tricked you this isnt a poem but i would like to say one or two things...

FIRST. poetry is a form of expression, not english class. if you genuinely think that a poem flows badly or would be a better work with commas and periods, then that's fine, i guess. BUT please consider that the lack of punctuation leaves the interpretation up to the reader more, and that as the author of the work, maybe i dont want to clearly distinguish between sentences.

SECOND. on the use of cliches - if an image is an obvious cliche - like an apple for a teacher, for example, it is possible to reexamine that image and use it to your benefit. ive only been here awhile but im seeing lots of you totally avoiding use of particular associations (like not using apple and teacher in the same stanza, etc.) because it may be cliched. There are ways to work around, or in some cases, with these cliches.

THIRD. purposes and main ideas - as i said before, poetry is a form of expression. i agree that being deliberately vauge is not always good, and that concrete images are usually preferable to abstracts, BUT i dont belive in writing with a main idea in mind - it almost always ruins the flow of creativity. if the poem ends up being about death, that's fine. dont decide that you want to write about death and then start writing. thats where crap comes from (at least when i do it...) so if one of my works is vauge, tell me that. dont say it lacks a main idea or purpose - it doesnt need one. lack of a solid idea leads to more possible meanings to the work and a more ambiguous poem - it doesnt tell you what to think. it leaves that up to the reader.

THANKZ

ebath

ps. plz dont take offense at anything i say here its not meant to offend or critizise anyones way of writing, or personal style. this is a reflection on my own style and an explanation on why you guys ALWAYS have to tell me to use punctuation/purpose/etc. you can keep on telling me these things but i may not always listen because of what i wrote up there.... and btw im not trying to be bitchy or anything, even if it sounds that way.

thanku

I think this better suits the Poetry Discussion forum

Also, watch chat speak on the forums, it isn't allowed here. Reference thispage! Welcome to YWS!

To be blunt, thinking this stubbornly is not going to help you become a better writer.

I'm all for creative expression, don't get me wrong. But it's true that there are...not bad, so to speak, but less effective and less sophisticated ways of expressing oneself.

The things you talked about have valid points. But this type of interpretation is better left to people who know what they're talking about. You've got to learn the rules before you break them.

I also feel that the "creative expression" is an excuse used by those whose work is criticized as "hard to understand" or "cliche." I could write a poem like this:
Moo hello blingbling
cheesegrater in the microwave
honeybee sex.
and say, "Well, golly, it's creative expression. Obviously. So you should appreciate it." But come on, really?

So this may bring up interesting discussion, but expect to be severely criticized by some members.

(Next time you want to rant, you might consider using proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation, as those things often help people take you seriously. Having an angry rant post with many errors indicates a very juvenile perspective.)

-Colleen

I am not a fan of books or letters that supposedly make you a better writer, thyey just dont work. You can write or you cant, and you leanr fom reading books, not books that teach you to read if that makes sense

And I could also write a reply like this without any punctuation so the post could be open to interpretation as well but it really reads like it's all one big long breath and no one could talk that long without breathing though I suppose someone could if they really wanted to in short punctuation while not necessary for understanding this post could be rather helpful as I think that I would get lost somewhere in the middle without punctuation and I'm the one who wrote it lol


(for the record, that was hard)



On clichés, it's generally best if they're avoided because they're boring. They're the same things being said over and over in the same manner. When reading a poem, I don't want to read a long list of clichés strung together; I want to read a poem to see what that particular poet has to say about the topic. Why it was important enough to him or her to dedicate a whole poem to that one idea. Then there's the simple fact that after something is said X number of times, it really doesn't mean much anymore. It's meant to mean that you get what you give, but the idea of round

Take "what goes around, comes around" as an example. Yes, it's a great phrase, useful in many a situation, I will admit. But it is not literally said anymore. Think of the origins of it: it probably originated in two people chasing each other in a circle. The guy in front probably got so mad that he ran faster and caught the guy chasing him. The 'original' story (that I'm totally making up) has a moral of "what goes around comes around", but if people only take the moral without the rest of the story, does it really have so much meaning anymore?

I could say over and over in a poem "and her heart burst with joy" (in honour of Valentine's Day) but what does that really mean? Her heart didn't literally explode, and it's doubtful that the vast majority of people have experienced their heart exploding, so how can anyone reading or writing know what that really means? And an explosion could occur in so many ways. It could be like a vinegar and baking soda reaction, or like waiting for a marshmallow to explode in a campfire. It is instead the writers job to show the event in a new light so that all the descriptions of this one event can shed light on what really happened, what it really was like. I could say "her heart burst with joy" or I could say "it was as if someone had stretched open her ribcage and grabbing her heart so that it, like her lungs, were so deplete with room to inflate that she no longer thought she could stand" (rather mushy, yes, but I think I've made my point).


Musing question: When neither the reader nor the writer knows the point of the poem, was there a point to writing it at all?

I think Melja covered it very well, of course, so did Dear Colly.

Is it just me or do these kinds of things get tiring? This is no attack on you, Ebath, or anyone else, but when ever I see someone complaining as to how we critique poetry, I see it as someone who themselves does not know what makes a good poem. It's an excuse to write poorly.

I've always made distinctions. Poetry is a good form of expression, but that poetry usually stays in one's diary. Poetry to be read has to have an intent to it, and like Melja said, without, was there a point to writing at all? You can write as much as you want and call it expression--but whether anyone else wants to read it and would gather anything from it is the distinction between diary and "I'm going to post it on YWS!"

I don't slap anyone when I say these things though. Heck. I was like that too, everyone was. But I think we almost need a detox group on how to step over the "hump" that writing presents. It isn't just poets, but fiction writers too, there is a certain age where we believe every dribble of word out of our mouth is amazing, and why edit when we wrote it and it is perfect? [I've been there.] But then there is the moment where your vision shifts, and your stories fall apart, and you realize, "This has no purpose." Which is the point where you also realize you've been lying to yourself and you could seriously use other peoples help, haha. But this is everyone. Even the best writer has that person they call up late at night just to say, "I think what I wrote is horrible--help?"

Realizing that punctuation doesn't hinder your thoughts, but instead, helps them, isn't that large of a step. I can never figure out if people say they don't use punctuation because of expression really mean "I'm lazy" or "I don't know how". If you don't know how, ask someone. Learning is an amazing thing, and looking silly is OK, too. You wouldn't believe how much I still don't know and how stupid I look when I realize I've done something wrong. [I still try to spell 40 fourty.]