Young Writers Society

YWS is about becoming a better writer, not advancing up the color wheel. Besides the secret forums, what can Instructors/Greeters do that normal members can't? Any member can write up a review or greet a new member, so if it's the color/status they're after maybe priorities need to be checked.

Manny wrote: Besides the secret forums, what can Instructors/Greeters do that normal members can't?

^^ Exactly what I was trying to say, haha, though you made a much more compact job of it.

Dreamer wrote:It's not the usergroup, but the group. Purples and blues are seen as more because they have colored names. Their colors, whether they intend it or not, are a sign of status for them among the community. Both greeters and instructors are elevated above regular Joes because they have a brightly colored name, are a part of a group that is distinguished for its respective skill in doing what it does... Whether the instructors and greeters intend it or not, by going blue or purple, they are elevating themselves above those without colors, in the eyes of those without colors.

Emphasis mine. That's exactly the point I've been trying to make; the Instructor group was designed so that it could hold the best reviewers, so that people would easily and immediately know where to turn and who to look up to. If somebody with a black name gets frustrated because he has a black name, then that anger shouldn't be directed at the Instructors. If a regular member wants to be an Instructor, then great! Just start reviewing and learn how to do so properly. It's really a very simple concept.

It is always easier to sit in a corner and cry rather than get up and solve the issue yourself. If people truly feel "intimidated" and "shut out" of whatever clique is perceived to exist, then that is totally and completely their fault and not the Instructors'. They have the power to change it, and are apparently unwilling to do so.

By your logic, all the groups, including Junior Mods, Mods, and Admins, should be removed as well because they are seen as a sign of prestige and status, no matter what their intention.

Then why has there been no discussion about that?

Because members - new ones, old ones - need to know where to go if they need help, if they have a problem with anything or anybody on the site, and shouldn't have to dig through scores of "badges" to find it. In addition, they should know that if they are reprimanded, the person who PMd them is qualified and approved to do so. That's the only possible justification I can see for the preservation of the mod group, and it's an understandable one.

The same should be applied to Instructors; if users want to know how to improve their writing and reviews, they should only have to skim the list of posters and find someone with a purple name, whom they know will be happy to help them out.

This entire thing is pointless. Badges instead of colors, cutting off the branches of the problem instead of the roots. It will not achieve it's purpose in the end.

By your logic, all the groups, including Junior Mods, Mods, and Admins, should be removed as well because they are seen as a sign of prestige and status, no matter what their intention.

Ack! Not what I meant! And not what I said, either.

There's a difference between JMs and purps/blues. If someone breaks the rules or does something that requires immediate attention, The instructors are not the ones to handle the sistuation. Nor are the Greeters. It's the mods who do it. Unlike the instructors and greeters, the mods are an authority. If a mod needs to be alerted of something ASAP, members don't want to go digging around in everyone's badges to find a moderating one, they want to see at a glance who they need to be able to report the situation to.

Greeters don't need to be notified the moment a new member joins so they can handle that situation and more than Instructors need to be tracked down every time someone posts a new story or poem. You're not a great reviewer because you're purple, you're purple because you're a great reviewer. If you (general sense here, not you, Gal, the member) distinguish yourself as such enough without the purple name, then you're doing your job just fine and have no need of it. People see your critiques everywhere, see how in depth you are, how helpful, etc. and word gets around that way. Before I became an instructor, I would have people PM me links to their story and request reviews, and that was how I did it. I reviewed enough to get my name out there, then the requests came in so my name stayed out there.

All they will need to do is be vaguely active in the forum they're about to post in. That is, do a couple critiques here and there. If they see your name popping up all the time, or they see that you've got some really amazing reviews, they'll remember that. Then when they post their work and see your name in the forums again, they'll remember you. There are some instructors who are god awful critics. There are some non-instructor members who would make amazing instructors. All getting rid of the colors does is separate the truly active, instructive people from the lesser so, from the lesser so, etc. Meaning some non-purple members from before with get the 2nd critiquing badge, while some purple people from before will only hold the one they got automatically for being an instructor. More or less, everyone who deserves credit, gets credit.

I don't exactly have any idea how active you are/can be right now, but all you need to do to let people know that they can come to you for reviews is to, well, review. Again, get your name out there. Do that, and as many people will come to you then as come to your now.

This is going nowhere.

I find the notion of 'cliques' laughable, to be honest - when I was purple I never 'hung out' with other purples, I made my friends here long ago and new ones aren't and never have been determined by colour. I also don't really agree with most of the justifications that have been provided but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't. Things will remain the same, essentially, it'll just be another feature that's received a makeover. If Nate thinks it's a good idea, fine.

What I really hate about much of this 'discussion' is the slandering the Instructors and Greeters are getting. I know it's not intentional but people are really swinging bats at them. These are all good people that have dedicated more time and effort (generally speaking) than others to ensuring people feel welcome and are getting the help they need on their stories. I'm sure by and large the Instructors, even on an individual basis, have more reviews to their name than most others and I don't think they did it selfishly. It really doesn't make sense to say they're puffed and only did it to 'look cool' when in the process they've given constructive reviews to a hundred poems and fifty short stories.

Likewise for the Greeters. I think it's very unfair. And I'm going to take this moment to thank them all. To every Instructor that has done their best (active and non-active) you've been the backbone of this site; constructive reviews are what keep people coming back, a desire to get better: thank you.

And to every Greeter who took time out of their day to make sure the dizzying number of new members were greeted and felt welcome -- thank you. I don't for one second think any of you are selfish, bigoted or in any orientated to not being helpful and friendly. Both job descriptions are based around those attributes.

And to everyone else who won't let this go:

Get over it.

The badges look great.

OK, I really like most of these improvement ideas, mostly the simplifying of the rules. Also, I'm pretty neutral on the Instructor/Greeter end of things, but do we really need to argue about it this much?
One quick question, though. In storybooks, it's good to just state some of the few basic YWS rules at the beginning. I presume it's still OK to do that?

Alright. I've held back on this for a while but now I'm going to share my two cents of the matter.

I'm not too fond of the badges. They actually look pretty spiffy, but as people have said before, you're just reintroducing the problem that you are trying to take away, but in a different form. Badges are supposed to distinguish a few select members from the rest. Aren't colors, too? As Galerius said, colors are easier to find. People (especially new members) won't want to go looking through pages of badges.

I'm also a little skeptical on the nomination process. I can understand the storybook badge, but the greeting and reviewing badges would be really hard to achieve for members who are not instructors or greeters because people aren't going to go looking through reviews/greets.

Secondly, I've found that new members trust me a lot more now that I've been blue. When I was black and in the welcome forum, new members replied to my posts, but when I was blue, they PMed me with all sorts of questions, asking me about the site and such. When I explained to them what a greeter was and that I was one, I think that they felt trusted when I was in their hands. Knowing that I'm part of the YWS staff in way will help new members feel more secure.

Take that all away and, well, YWS has destroyed part of what it stands for.

Just my two cents.

Elinor Brynn wrote:I'm also a little skeptical on the nomination process. I can understand the storybook badge, but the greeting and reviewing badges would be really hard to achieve for members who are not instructors or greeters because people aren't going to go looking through reviews/greets.

My experience as a plain black member is quite the opposite - people are definitely reading reviews, because there's a ton of positive feedback sloshing around. People who currently use private messages and posts and guestbooks to share the love would also have the option of nominating in future. Seems workable to me.

Hm...I'm pretty sure your system could work out, Nate, but I can understand some of the naysayer's opinions. Still, I'm with Karsten--people are definitely reading reviews. It might be from the Will Review for Food (yup, I noticed it) forum, or it might be someone just browsing the literary works and reading the previous reviews. Hey, but I'm a real newbie here. Joined only yesterday.

My thanks to Karsten for pointing that out, in the past few days I've seen her get more positive feedback than any of the Instructors where reviews are concerned.

Also with Jigs, I agree. Yes, there are YWS cliques, but it's not like a Purp goes "Oh, you mean you have a navy blue name? Well. I mean. I can't hang out with you." Any cliques that exist are because some people get on better with others, not because they've got a colouredy name. So saying the badges will encourage the same cliques as the old system... no, it won't. But in my opinion it's a better system. If you worked hard for your blue or purple name, great! Now you can work hard for that badge.

And yes, I will be sad to see the rainbow go. But myeh. The badges look decent too (not so sure about the orangey-yellow background, but I'm just like that).

Basically, I agree with Jigs' last post overall.

I just want to say thanks to Jiggity. Other than that I'm not saying anymore on the matter because pretty much everything has been said. I will do whatever Nate wants me do so I don't really know why we are arguing, but like a lot of other people have said: the colors have been around for as long as I've been on YWS. So I just think it'll be a little odd not to have them but I'm sure I'll get used to it.

~peanut~

We aren't slandering anyone, or swinging bats at them. We're responding to people who want to keep their colors because it makes them feel special, when they could do exactly what they've been doing as staff with the resources of a normal member once colors are gone.

Right. You're saying a large number of people are just stroking their ego's and have a trumped up sense of self-importance - that will somehow be negated by having badges instead of colours - and that's not at all insulting? Right.

Mind you, I know that's not what Nate's saying. He's just trying to come up with a better system, which is gravy. But that's certainly the way you're presenting it, or how it comes across at times. It's unpleasant. I just think it should be noted that the Instructors and Greeters have done an incredible job as well.

Just looking at this discussion, I'm not sure if YWS is ready right now to do away with the Instructor and Greeter positions. Essentially, the groups have done their jobs-- recognized individuals who are good, constructive reviewers, or good, friendly welcomers (if that's even a word). The Moderators determine this. Sure, there have been (and will be) members of each group who have delusions of grandeur about their position. I was one of them, when I first joined-- I made some stupid, snotty comment about being purple, but I apologized, and I'm pretty sure that apology was accepted. If colorful members start getting uppity, that's all it takes: a reprimand. A jolt back into reality. The purps and blues I know do their job because they like to be helpful, and, as far as I'm concerned, it's worked.

The Instructors and Greeters are people who Mods have deemed helpful in certain aspects of this site. The colored name is an efficient way to find someone who can help you in whatever area you need help in, whether it be a tour of the site or a critique. I find nothing wrong with the system as it is.

All of this said, I am most certainly not going to throw a hissy fit if the groups are eliminated. Nate mentioned something about badges being awards and colors being ranks, but I see them both as simply recognition for hard work, something to aim towards and improve for. Perhaps people shouldn't /need/ the incentive, but it's nice nonetheless. And, whatever happens with all this hullabaloo, I'm still going to critique. =P