Young Writers Society

I like the other one better *nods*

I do too Kamas. Here are the final badges:


So, back to the discussion at hand

I really like all the ideas, really takes away the incentive to review/help people so that the people do it because they would anyway. The only thing I'm iffy about is the badge system; what would stop someone from orchestrating 5 friends to nominate them just so that person could get said badge without actually "earning" it?

Manny wrote:I really like all the ideas, really takes away the incentive to review/help people so that the people do it because they would anyway. The only thing I'm iffy about is the badge system; what would stop someone from orchestrating 5 friends to nominate them just so that person could get said badge without actually "earning" it?

The mod-squad approval quiz of course! I think they mentioned that it's not only 5 nominations, the person gets a yay or nay from the mod squad.

-Shina

Shina's got it. The mods and admins have to approve all nominations before they pass.

Cool. Then I support all of it. :{B

*dances*

Jiggity wrote:The only difference between Badges/Colours as far as I can tell is the nomination process not being secret. I think that can just as well be done for the Instructors/Greeters without all the fuss. I think it's wrong to suggest that the Instructors/Greeters are lording it above everyone else -- their implied importance is as much given to them by their peers as it is by the mods. When someone is reviewing well, people tend to notice. Once that happens they tend to get nominated. Likewise with greeting.

The only difference now is that instead of a colour, they'll get a badge.

I agree entirely with Jigs.

Whose to say people won't only review, post or greet just to get nominated for a badge? They'll only be working towards getting a badge instead of helping people. Not that I'm saying everyone here is like that, but we must look at all sides of this.

As much as I enjoy the colours on YWS and being an Instructor, I do agree with getting rid of them. It's like being in school. You got the nerds, the bullies, the popular people, the losers, etc. The people who win a badge get to feel good but at the same token, they're like those high ranking students at school. They're just a little higher up than everyone else.

So, I suppose I'm iffy with replacing the colours with badges. There isn't too much of a difference between the two. Right?

I do like the idea of getting rid of the review ratio business. Newbies never understand they have to review how ever many times before posting their own work. They're just to excited to be bothered with such stuff. However, I've seen newbies flood the forums with their posts. So, the 48 hour thing sounds pretty neat. Yet, how do you insure that people are going to review? Or did I miss something...?

You could summon all the rules of both the chat and the site into one or two big ones. That practically mean everything, just put simpiler. For, everything needs a rule or two. We know life has it.

*moved my comment into the mod group* XD

I should add that I adore the idea of making the Instructors group an open forum. In hindsight, there's absolutely no reason why that group should be closed. What, they'll discuss secret reviewing schemes and not let everyone in on it?! I can't believe we didn't think of this before haha -- it'll be so much more effective this way.

Also, the whole relaxed feng shui YWS of 2010 is fantismo.

There is only no distinction between colors and badges when you reduce the elements of both to the barest of essentials while removing all that makes them meaningful. It's like saying there's no difference between the UK and USA because both begin with the word 'United'.

What do the colors represent? They represent ranks. Ranks represent a hierarchy. What do badges represent? They represent an award. Awards vs ranks sounds like a very big distinction to me. Nothing about that is "farcical" in the least.

The biggest strength of the current system is that it gives people something to work toward. As you can tell just from the comments here, there are a lot of people who improved their reviewing skills in the hope of becoming an Instructor.

Unfortunately, the current system has a lot of drawbacks. One is that when people become an Instructor, they begin to feel a sense of duty. I've already explained why in the original post why that's a bad thing. Two, the current system is a hierarchy built on the absurd principle that colored robes makes us different. I don't mind hierachies, but there's something plainly ludicrous when you've got people who are exceptional not within the hierarchy and when you've got people who haven't been around in years in the hierarchy.

But a badge system is different, and it's only equivalent to the color system when you adopt the principle that colors just mean colors. Badges are awards earned for recognition of a deed. They are not a rank, and are worn almost inconspicuously upon the robe rather than being the robe itself.

And the bottom line remains, if you recognize someone for their deeds, then they are more likely to repeat that action in the future. Sure, you can take the high ground and say people should just review for the sake of reviewing, but that's being idealistic. In the absence of the ideal, badges are a pretty good compromise.

I've seen the site evolve since the beginning. I've never voiced a thing on the politics, since I hate politics, and furthermore... I don't believe it is my place.

I am old, and cranky. I mean that metaphorically, of course, but seeing as you are asking us all (young and old) then I believe I can voice something.

If you are going to eliminate the Greeters and the Instructors then the only honorable thing to do would be to promote them. I'm not sure which one is higher ranked but i'll assume that the Greeters are at the lowest pillar of political power. Bump them all up to JM and offer the Instructors Moderator positions, or vice versa. If that is too complicated then just keep them as Greeters and Instructors, simply remove the colors. Give them a little icon or something that identifies them and their position.

If you're looking to eliminate rules then one is all you really need. As you so aptly named it "common sense" then so be it. Pass the ban hammer on to the JMs and the Moderators and give them complete control. Although I doubt this idea to be a good one since some people are completely lacking in common sense, a list of rules is almost a necessity. I like things simple and tolerable and efficient. Which YWS is.

The force is strong with you, Nathaniel. However you decide to handle things I'm sure the site will come out better for it.

Peace out
~Reyu

Just to repeat Nate, the idea is to change from placing you in a group to rewarding you individually. The shift from being known as an instructor to having earned a badge should be similar, I think. We just want to avoid isolating groups and foster a healthier community.

Reyu, your first suggestion (promotion) will never be implemented and your second suggestion (shift from colors to icons) is what the administration already plans to do.

As to the general idea put forth in this thread...

It won't work.

Cliques are part and parcel of human nature and the color system is taking all the punches for all frustration having to do with arrogance and snobbishness associated with the usergroups. It's not to blame. If there is such an emphasis on an individual base, then why not deal with the perceived "self-importance" case by case, reprimanding those who would employ such an attitude? Why remove the entire usergroup, whether it be Instructors or Greeters, for the slights of some of its members? This entire idea doesn't make sense because it seems to be removing the symptoms and not the systemic issue. The people who glorify their purple titles right now will be the same ones demonstrating pride that they got a Reviewing I and Reviewing II badge, and will try to use that to boost their ego exactly like they do with the colors. Personalities like these will find a way to show themselves no matter how many safeguards you implement.

And what exactly is it about the usergroups that fosters these cliques? The colors themselves? The reason that people are envious of the titles is because they want to be known as successful and respected Instructors. This implies that they want to be good at reviewing and assisting with literary improvement, which cannot be anything but a good thing.

Such a populist move as the one brought forth in this thread will only exacerbate the problem by turning it into a popularity contest, as has been mentioned by some. For example, a newcomer who has received a sub-par review that praises his work may be pleased and decide to post in the nominations thread, nominating whoever reviewed him. The value, the entire point, of the badges will weaken over time; people will no doubt collect the different titles like valuables until nearly every member with more than fifty posts has the reviewing and greeting badges; after all, out of the 11,000 members on this site, every member who's posted here must have at least five people who are impressed with his reviewing/greeting. It'll cheapen. "When everything is sacred, nothing is sacred", etc.

The usergroup was created for a reason, and a good one - not to "reward" people for being good reviewers, I hope, but to establish them as such and let it be known to the website that if anyone needed a review, they were the ones to come to. The Instructor forum is part of a hierarchy and that is not a bad thing. It's as absurd to claim that it is somehow "bad" to be known as better at reviewing than others almost as it is absurd to be overly proud of such a title. It is what it is. People who find fault with the fact that the Instructors get the colors they do need to consider that there is a very simple fix: start reviewing and then apply. There is no limit to how many Instructors there can be at any point, so why complain that it's become a closed and insular group? Those who are good at reviewing will get the position. Those who aren't, won't. That's the way it works in the real world on almost every level of every job in every department of every company. There is no reason for YWS to shy away from it.

By all means, though, run a thorough investigation into how much arrogance really does run through the veins of the Instructors group. Take aside those who are at the center of the phenomenon and either explain the reality to them or take them out of the group. But don't burn the entire forest because of a bent tree.

So here are my suggestions:

I do agree with the suggestion that the Instructor forum be made viewable by everybody. There's no reason to keep it behind shut doors. Not everybody needs to have the ability to post in it, but the content should at least be made publicly accessible.

As has been said before, the secrecy needs to be taken out of the appointing process in the event that the groups are kept and not disposed of. Let the Instructors appoint their own by a majority vote, much as the Junior Moderators and Moderators do. It'll stem the notion of being chosen by a divine hand from above and will instead reflect the opinions of the people who know the system best - the Instructors themselves.

*be forewarned, Lily is about to ramble senselessly*

Okay, I suppose I’m mostly commenting because of the Instructor/Greeter thing. And it is mostly because of my fear of loosing my shiny name. And that mostly comes from the memories that come with it, from the first reviews that I received from Andy and Nutty, the months of working to better my quality of reviews, the week when I review/point battled with June, when she was still springrain, near the beginning of July, or the rallying I attempted to do for the KB.

Being an Instructor holds some huge memories for me. YWS as a whole holds a lot of memories for me. If it weren’t for the existence of the Instructors as a group, I doubt I would have stuck around for as long as I did. Instructors were the people who inspired me to want to be a review because it gave me something to strive towards. Had I left, the site would be *glances at her stats* 254 reviews less in this last year or so that I’ve been a member. (It’s really only been, wow, a year and a month since I joined.)
So, I think for me, my reluctance comes from a fear of losing a lot of really great memories that came with being an Instructor.

And what I don’t understand is where the idea comes from that Instructors suddenly feel guilty if they don’t review. I went all of November without touching any part of the site aside from the chat room and I came back in December missing the literary forums, not feeling guilty that I hadn’t been around. I take plenty of time off from YWS when I just don’t want to look at another word but for the most part, I always end up missing the site, not feeling neglectful.


As for the review ratio, I’m worried mostly about new members ubber spamming the site. That is the #1 thing that drives me up a wall is to look at the homepage and see that 3 out of the 10 newest works are by the same person. Even seeing two by the same will generally make me not want to review them strictly for that spam factor. That, and a lot of those members will get reviewed and then you’ll never hear or see them again. *Note to self, don’t ramble and 1:30 in the morning.


Okay, next babble.

Nate wrote: 5. Only let Junior Moderators and Moderators explain/enforce the rules.

Nate mentioned this in the first post and I was a little shocked by it. Because, wouldn’t that mean kind of taking away the Greeter idea. I mean, when I first posted in the Welcome Forum in November of 2008, I got a big list of the main rules, read them, took them in, and then went and did my two reviews before posting and I received these rules and explanations of them from Greeters and other members.



I do things in a strange order….
This Badge System
I’m not fond of it. If it were up to me, which obviously it isn’t, I would either have all or nothing. To me, they seem like added clutter to the forums. I just took a screenshot of a forum page (wanted to save my name in purple for ever) and it’s almost completely over cluttered already. Badges feel like an eyesore to me.

Jiggity wrote: I should add that I adore the idea of making the Instructors group an open forum. In hindsight, there's absolutely no reason why that group should be closed. What, they'll discuss secret reviewing schemes and not let everyone in on it?

Secret was a key term in that whole ‘secret reviewing schemes’ thing.
But I do think some of it should be kept private. I know, like with the KB project I tried to instigate earlier this year, I couldn't imagine trying to do that if the entire YWS was involved. Having this small group of Instructors to work with made it easier.
I think that's how it is with a lot of the things that are posted in the Instructor forum. It gives a smaller group of individuals a chance and a location to voice their opinions without new members popping in and being all: "i lyk dis" or "dats not kool" (That chat speak right there may have been the most difficult thing I've ever done.)
Most of the projects that have begun in the Instructor's Forum probably wouldn't have had the success rate that they had, big or small, if every single member of YWS was able to look at it.

P.S. I definitely second the comments that Galerius has made. The points that Gal made are indeed brilliant.
P.P.S. I still get freaked out when I see Nate's name not red. I've known it as red all of my YWS life. And to be honest, I think it makes him look less distinct, less...adminny. He seems too normal. And he kind of, blends in. *shudders*

And now that I’ve killed the last half an hour, it’s time for me to drop to sleep.

And what exactly is it about the usergroups that fosters these cliques?

It's not the usergroup, but the group. Purples and blues are seen as more because they have colored names. Their colors, whether they intend it or not, are a sign of status for them among the community. Both greeters and instructors are elevated above regular Joes because they have a brightly colored name, are a part of a group that is distinguished for its respective skill in doing what it does. Their groups are also behind closed doors, adding to their allure. Only official greeters can see what the greeters are talking about, what plans they're making for the forums, and only official instructors can see what plans are being made there. Just like only mods can see the mod group. Whether the instructors and greeters intend it or not, by going blue or purple, they are elevating themselves above those without colors, in the eyes of those without colors.

I know, like with the KB project I tried to instigate earlier this year, I couldn't imagine trying to do that if the entire YWS was involved.

Actually, if all of YWS would have gotten involved, that would have been great. People would suddenly remember or become aware of the knowledge base, would take part in refilling it with their own knowledge (they know things we don't, after all, and everybody has something to contribute). If the member base took part in it, it would have more meaning to them because somewhere in that muddle is something they wrote, a bit of advise they had to offer. Something they can link to in their reviews, something to remind them that there are other articles there that might help, too.

I like the idea of the forums being made open to the public eye. We as instructors have everything to share and nothing to hide, right? Why should we horde all our tips to ourselves just because we were in that group? Also, the groups are getting iced either way. Either the usergroups are there for us to remember the good times and for everyone to have access to, or they get deleted along with the purple font. The instructors are pretty well gone. Projects like the KB one were really really excellent, but ust because the purps won't exist anymore doesn't mean you can't gather up a small group of people later and raid it again like before.