Young Writers Society

Colors: I'm not to keen on getting rid of colors. Members who were just made feel cheated that they weren't spend a large amount of time as a greeter/instructor. To avoid those who would abuse the power and just become a greeter/instructor for the color, I think these positions should begin having nominations, like for JMods and Mods.

I'm not too sure what you are trying to say here but surely those who are dedicated instructors/greeters will still continue to greet new members and review? I reviewed in black, and no matter the colour of my name I'll continue to review. Maybe those who will feel cheated didn't apply for the right reasons then, no? Besides, I try and greet as many new members as I can even though I am not a greeter and so do a lot of other people. It's the same with reviewing.

Hmm... everything sounds good. The simplification of the rules seems nice, and was probably called for. I've always wanted an anarchist state filled with artists and intellectuals, but I suppose this is the next best thing. You don't even have to read the rules to know what they are, which is good. I like removing the review ratio as well. First of all, it was very confusing. I remember reading that it went from 4:1 to 5:1, but everyone in their posts said 3:1 and 2:1, until I finally gave up. Giving people good reviews is probably motivation enough in itself without being enforced by the KGB. Scratch someones back, and maybe they'll scratch yours. If they have any soul or kindness left, that is.

And greeters and instructors? Who needs em'! I've never been impressed by instructors, and I've been shocked why certain people aren't instructors, and all that yass. Greeters just sort of monopolize the Welcome forum, so send them the Davy Jones Locker. All it does it make cliques, if just ones with good intentions.

Badges seem cool, but I'm not totally sure what to make of them. I'd see it being people nominating their friends instead of people who deserve it, and other people being swept under the rug. Like a popularity contest, basically. And they seem to just make elitists and wannabes out of people, and what fun is that? I do think the idea of recognition is good, though.

Overall, everything sounds cool. This place could do with a little more relaxation.

I'm pretty happy either way with the groups being taken down. The removal of the review ratio is what makes me wince a bit, though I chalk it up to personal worries as well as 'that's the way we've always done it' syndrome. That said, it's not really a bad idea. You're using logic in place of rules based on logic, which tends to work better anyways from personal experience.

The badges make me happy, but they do look a tad cluttered. Perhaps if they were smaller, or on the profile instead? Subtler that way, if they were on the profiles instead, though depending on your personal preference, that could be a positive or negative point. I'd actually feel a little silly showing off my badge to everyone every time I made a post, even though I don't feel silly with bright purple name. I suppose it's the connotations that go along with each. A purple name means you're a part of a group, a badge means you've done something. Showing it off every time you posted would feel like... showing off, lol.

But I'm a weirdo. I don't mind really, either way. I do maintain that if someone happens to get more than one badge it would look cluttered, though. But such a tweak can be fixed later after implementation, yes? Aside from that, I really do like the idea of them. You had said several times before that being an instructor was like having a badge for something you once did. This way it really is a badge.

I think eliminating the review ratio is a good idea. I agree with what's already been said about this so I'm not going to spend time repeating everything others have said.
As for colors, I wouldn't be entirely opposed to getting rid of them, but I do kind of like having them. For me, it gives me motivation to do things for the site. Like when I first started I was like, 'I'm going to get really good and greeting so I can become a greeter' and now it's 'I'm going to get really good at reviewing/mentoring so I can become an instructor'. And I know with the badges there would be similar motivation but if you get the badge, can you get it again? Or can you get it taken away? Like if you went nuts on reviews just so you could get the badge and then just never reviewed after that. One other question, would JM's, Mods, and Admins still have colors because they are the ones that kind of run/keep the site together?

-Carly

Carlito wrote: One other question, would JM's, Mods, and Admins still have colors because they are the ones that kind of run/keep the site together?

Yeah, I should think so. They are the ones who are going to be enforcing rules, so other members need be able to recognise them and their distinct colours would help avoid confusion.

I think these are great ideas, Nate! Especially with the review ratio--I can't wait to see how YWS is going to grow in the face of these new changes.

And I would urge instructors and greeters to remember that the disappearance of colors does not strip you of the job you love. Instructors were chosen for the prowess at instructing and greeters for their zeal in greeting. Just because you now have badges instead of colors doesn't mean that you are no longer a 'greeter' or 'instructor'. If you continue to greet and continue to instruct, then just like a person who writes is a writer, you are still one who instructs or one who greets. Take pride in that; those things you excel in are still vital to the atmosphere and community of YWS.

I really feel a little doubtful about the badges part because, it just adds to the 'status' problem.We already have those gold blue and red stars beneath the display pictures which should be enough.

I'm so sorry -.-" I didn't read your whole comment before posting this. So I guess, YG, I'm somewhat backing you up?

-Shina

I think all of these changes seem very good. They are combating some things that have been worried about or not happy about. YWS as a whole for me has started to feel like somewhat of a chore and a bit scary at times.

I like the simplification or more thought through rules because there are always misunderstandings to do with the rules and a great many of them that just seemed to keep piling up and up. So I like this new clear cut distilled version of the rules.

Review ratio not being there seems like a good idea. Yes I'm not a great reviewer and people who know me on YWS know I tend to moan about it lol But I have it built into me that it's not fair to expect reviews when I don't give them. I used to review a whole lot more when I first joined but now I feel deterred because it seems to be all about getting your ratio up and doing as many reviews as you can rather than actually helping people improve. I want to review because I enjoy helping people.

I like the greeting people with a hello and not bombarding them. I see this a lot in chat when a new person comes in and has no idea of the rules and people will bombard them with rules and telling them off for something they didn't even know was wrong. In my experience just being nice and helpful with someone works better and makes them feel more welcomed.

As someone who is outside the whole hierarchy of YWS I think it would be good to remove the instructors and greeters groups. To me it seems like people just want a colour rather than wanting to be awesome reviewers or greeters and help people (I'm not saying everyone is like that of course). If they are really dedicated they can do it without the colour. From an outsider perspective I sometimes feel quite left out or as though my opinion doesn't count. I also think you are right about the whole pressure situation. I remember when YWS cleaned out the instructors and greeters who were no longer active and the people with colours who were active were getting very upset and feeling very pressurised to perform, which doesn't create a good atmosphere. This badge thing seems like a good idea, you may still get the whole cliquy thing but I think definitely to a lesser extent.

So all in all I think it's great what you are thinking of doing. I for one will always go for a more relaxing YWS to the one that is sometimes presented now, which occasionally makes me want to leave.

Hope this works out to make the majority of people happier That's my two cents...or pennies.

Review ratio: I'm glad to see it go, though I have it up it stressed me out every time I would post. It's just a burden on people who have trouble voicing their opinions/don't know what to say. I think it's great to move away from this.

Colours: I'm a little iffy on this one.I understand why you want to remove them but there are two things I think you would lose doing so.

Firstly, people get a the motivation to greet and review when they wish to apply for greeter or instructor. Doing so they improve their reviewing/greeting skills and review/greet more. Getting the colour makes them proud of their work, even if it's just for a bit.

Secondly, the new users won't know who to turn to besides the JM and Mods. I know that I've gotten a few PMs from new users because I was the only member with a colour online. It sort of has that 'I can help you over here' thing to it.

But I agree that the task becomes daunting and cliques are formed excluding the older members that don't have a colour. The badges idea is simply okay. It seems a little messy at the moment and needs some cleaning up. Maybe a purple check mark for reviewing experience and a blue one for greeting experience. It's just a suggestion and I'm not sure how it would work but it may be a little neater then the badges.

I'm happy to see YWS evolving like this. Happy 2010.

Kamas

I can only echo what's been said about the cluttering effect that the badges may cause. I think it's do-able (writers cafe goes by a badge system) but I prefer the color system. I agree with Shina -- the colors represent the hard work we've put into YWS. That may sound elitist, classist, etc, but the color system is a more obvious way of marking members of high achievement.

However, as with all changes of late, Nate's visions for YWS always turn out beautifully!

-Kylan

I can only echo what's been said about the cluttering effect that the badges may cause. I think it's do-able (writers cafe goes by a badge system) but I prefer the color system. I agree with Shina -- the colors represent the hard work we've put into YWS. That may sound elitist, classist, etc, but the color system is a more obvious way of marking members of high achievement.

I think we're going in a circle -.-" In a way, the stars, badges, and colors are all the same thing: they symbolize our hard work, they recognize members for being good members. But if we were to remove the instructor and greeter statuses and replace it with the badge dealio, wouldn't it be the same thing? I mean if your instructordom doesn't show through your bright purple title, it'll surely show through your bright purple review badge, right?

So basically, it's like a reform of the instructor-greeter classes? You're not getting rid of them, you're putting them in badge form and saying it's not a job anymore? O____o If that's all it is, then we couldn't we just make the instructor and greeter groups not a closed a group, but make the colors through the nomination process like badges?

However, as with all changes of late, Nate's visions for YWS always turn out beautifully!

It does xD I don't even need to worry about it.

-Shina

I'm honestly not sure what the difference is going to be between badges and colors, besides the nomination process. I'm not sure who said it earlier, but I agree that a nominating could turn into a popularity contest, or "Ooh, that's my friend, I'm gonna nominate them!" And if we do go with the badge ideas, I think five nominations would be too easy.

I'm completely fine with getting rid of Instructors and Greeters, on a personal level-- I know that losing a shiny color isn't going to make me review any less. But I also know that as a newer member it was really nice to be able to look at someone's color and know for sure that they could help you, whether it was finding your way around the site or getting a good critique. And, once I knew what that purple title meant, it was my motivation to write constructive critiques.

And I'm not sure about the whole "only-mods-and-Jr. Mods-enforce-the-rules" thing. That's kind of reinforcing the superior feelings we're trying to eliminate. Since we'll have so few rules anyway, a quick "Oh, actually, no chat-speak here, please" from any member would solve the problem more easily than calling in the big, scary, important green people. I know I'd feel better being corrected by a "regular" member than one of the authorities.

Whew! You asked for input. =P Basically, I know that whatever you decide it'll turn out wonderfully. It always does. Thanks!

Best comment of the year award goes to Karsten for:

Karsten wrote:End the oppressive review ratio and its numerical hegemony!

I want to thank everyone for their comments! I've read through all of them, and it looks like pretty much everyone agrees with getting rid of the review ratio and the simplification of the rules. I haven't seen anyone comment, though, on the only two works every 48 hours thing, and I just want to ask if people think if that's too little, too much, not necessary, etc. I think it helps with reinforcing the idea that YWS is not a portfolio site.

However, the colors seem to the controversial area! I expected that, and truth be told, Snoink had to convince me into it. However, I think it's a great idea.

Look at the colors
It looks to me that most everyone is okay with getting rid of the colors. Of course, this is just the people who have commented thus far so this may not extend to the site as a whole.

The best argument against colors I think comes from Critiq. Like him, I'm shocked at some of the people who aren't an Instructor. In some cases, this is because they never applied. In other cases, I think the person would feel insulted if they were made an Instructor. Getting rid of the colors gets rid of that ridiculous distinction whereby someone who has been a member of this site for years, gives excellent reviews, but is to the eyes of a lot of people lower on the YWS totem pole than some dude in purple.

As for people not reviewing or greeting anymore because they don't have a color to reach for, GOOD. This is an argument made by those against getting rid of colors. What they don't realize is that it's the best argument in favor of getting rid of colors.

When we brought the colors a couple years ago, a lot of people were worried that some would review just to become a certain color. Those people have now been proven correct. If you're reviewing just to be purple, that's an awful thing.

Replacing the color system with a user nominated system of badges will help alleviate this issue. Instead of applying, you'll be nominated by your peers. Not only is this more transparent (always a plus), but it also increases the amount of peer motivation (a huge plus).

A user nominated system of badges also devolves power from on top to the bottom. For that reason, I'm surprised anyone would be against it. What is good about a secret application process? Nothing really. With a nomination process that is open, transparent, and decided by the community rather than some upper echelon, YWS will be a better place for all.

Moreover, getting rid of the colors gets rid of the Romanesque distinction that people in colored robes are somehow better than the rest.

However, I think everyone pretty much agrees with above. What they don't necessarily agree with is the badges. So...


The Badge / Medal System
I think most people support this, but they're worried about visual clutter. Some also believe the badges are drab. Fortunately, aesthetic aspects can be easily solved. Chirantha did bring up the prospect of replacing them with police style badges, but I rather avoid that since I think that just adds to visual clutter. Plus, I want the badges to be displayed whenever the person makes a post.

To be honest, I like the drabness of the badges. There's a sort of solemnity to them that they might not otherwise have. However, I'll check around and see if there isn't something else we can go forward with.

Evi: You brought up some other points I wanted to address

I'm actually worried that five nominations made be too much. But with stuff like that, we can easily fix it later on. I'm betting that a couple months from now, it'll be three nominations.

And don't forget that the nomination process is not automatic. I still have to go through the database and manually add that badge to the person's profile. If they got it because of a popularity contest, I'll notice. But, from what I've seen on other sites with such systems, the fears of a popularity contest are overblown.

However, I do only want Jr Mods and Mods enforcing the rules. There's a lot of reasons for this. One, it is completely out of line when one member tells another not to use all-caps. A lot of times, they get it wrong. At other times, it adds a level of tenseness that should not be there. Members do not enforce the rules.

Two, when members do enforce the rules, it usually ends up with four people telling the new member the same thing. How do you think that feels? YWS should be a welcoming place. Members enforcing rules that they should not enforcing in the first place makes YWS feel rigid and unfriendly.