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From The Financial Times:

EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial

By Tobias Buck in Brussels

Published: April 17 2007 19:56 | Last updated: April 17 2007 19:56

Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from ministers Thursday.

Offenders will face up to three years in jail under the proposed legislation, which will also apply to inciting violence against ethnic, religious or national groups.

Diplomats in Brussels voiced confidence on Tuesday that the controversial plan, which has been the subject of heated debate for six years, will be endorsed by member states. However, the Baltic countries and Poland are still holding out for an inclusion of “Stalinist crimes” alongside the Holocaust in the text – a move that is being resisted by the majority of other EU countries.

The latest draft, seen by the Financial Times, will make it mandatory for all Union member states to punish public incitement “to violence or hatred directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin”.

They will also have to criminalise “publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes” when such statements incite hatred or violence against minorities.

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I thought it already existed in Austria and Germany? Also, there was this guy who was an active holocaust denier who said that it never existed, then went to Austria on holiday and got arrested. Duurrrrrr....

Anyway I think it is a good idea. If you don't believe in the holocaust then you can keep it to yourself, denying it just causes grief to the relatives of those involved.

I'm not too bothered who denies it or not, as long as they're not trying to enforce their views on other people. Three years seems a tad harsh for giving your opinion. Isn't free speech one of the basic human rights? I do, however, agree that if people are "inciting violence against ethnic, religious or national groups" then they should indeed be punished. There's no need for it, and causes unnecassary harm.

I want to bash those who deny the Holocaust (*mutters under breath* WILL not rant, will NOT rant, will not RANT) over the head with a copy of Eragon

but

you shouldn't get arrested for your opinion, however idiotic. Just no. In so many ways. However, "inciting violence" is another thing.

My opinion is the same as Pushca and Kazsmurf on this, but I don't live in Europe, so if that's what they want, then meh.

What I do find interesting about this however is it's a huge slap in the face to Turkey and any hopes that they hold for joining the EU. Turkey still strongly denies the Armenian genocide, so this bill would effectively destroy any chances Turkey has. However, if this were to lead to Turkey finally admitting to and apologizing for the Armenian genocide, just as Germany has done for the holocaust, then that would be a very good thing indeed. Either way, verrrrrrrrry interesting.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, I believe in free speech, period. On the other hand, we have an obligation to educate people in the horrors of the holocaust, so that it never happens again, and even today in our midst we have people claiming it didn't happen, and it was all some giant "zionist plot" for one thing or the other, and all it does is weaken our ability to teach the truth. No matter how obviously wrong they are, often they have good propagandists (at least people like Iran and te Arabs do) and get people to believe them, which is not only an affront to the victims, and the survivors, but is counter-productive in our education thereof.

On a related note, Norman Finkelstien, David Duke, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the members of Nuterei Karta should all be tortured, if not shot. They should be ashamed of themselves, having a "holocaust revisionist" conference. Finkey (Finkelstein) has made a career out of being a self-hating Jew.

Um... can anyone say thought crime?

With Sab - Holocaust denial serves one purpose and one purpose alone, and that's the test the limits of free speech. If you can get away with it, your country actually and truly respects freedom of speech; if you're prosecuted, they put political correctness above it.

Anyone who actually thinks the Holocaust didn't happen or somehow seven million Jews, homosexuals, Romany, disabled and others just disappeared 'somewhere else' is a nutcase. Nod politely and have them committed. As Snoink says, however, one thing leads to another - ban a man from saying something because you think he's wrong, and soon you'll be able to do it because you don't like what he says. Then we're in trouble.

I don't think it's a good idea to make it illegal, simply cos of the whole free-speech thing.

Just laugh at holocaust deniers instead, tis much more fun.

backgroundbob wrote:With Sab - Holocaust denial serves one purpose and one purpose alone, and that's the test the limits of free speech. If you can get away with it, your country actually and truly respects freedom of speech; if you're prosecuted, they put political correctness above it.

Anyone who actually thinks the Holocaust didn't happen or somehow seven million Jews, homosexuals, Romany, disabled and others just disappeared 'somewhere else' is a nutcase. Nod politely and have them committed. As Snoink says, however, one thing leads to another - ban a man from saying something because you think he's wrong, and soon you'll be able to do it because you don't like what he says. Then we're in trouble.

Thats why I said that I wasn't sure where I stood on this issue. Although, your numbers are skewed Bob...6 million Jews alone, add onto that anywhere between 4 and 6 other people, Slavs, Disabled, Homosexuals, Gypsies, Communists, Romany, etc, and our grand total goes somewhere between 10 and 12 million murdered innocents.

Good Lord, this scares the heck out of me. I honestly beleive the holocaust occured, but the first time you make it a crime to state an opinion, you start on a veerrrryyyy dangerous road.

the first time you make it a crime to state an opinion, you start on a veerrrryyyy dangerous road.

Yep. I'm sure this wasn't their intent, but it makes you wonder how far someone can take the issue of allowing/not allowing certain beliefs.

It is a growing trend, this whole rotten idea of putting political correctness and the "feelings of others" over the basic right of free speech. As others have said, I personally believe that anyone who denies the Holocaust is either a brainwashed moron or a horribly prejudiced, more dangerous moron. Still, they have the right to be morons.

Living in the United States, my friends and I don't really "get" the Holocaust or feel the effects as much as Europeans do. I do have a friend and neighbor who's an exchange student from Germany, and she says that where she's from, plenty of people, even our age, are still anti-Jew. The issue does need to be addressed, but sticking people in prison for denying the Holocaust isn't going to do anything except, well, stick people in prison. Education generally works a lot better than punishment.

However, the Baltic countries and Poland are still holding out for an inclusion of “Stalinist crimes” alongside the Holocaust in the text – a move that is being resisted by the majority of other EU countries.

This is a fantastic point! We debated it in my social studies class: Why is the Holocaust remembered more than Stalin's crimes against humanity? Stalin killed just as many, if not more, than Hitler. Here are some of the reasons we came up with:
-We were on the Russian/USSR side in WWs I and II.
-It's not as well documented (my personal point) - after Germany was defeated, they had hundreds of photographers taking pictures at the concentration camps, taking pictures of starved people and dead bodies. In Siberia, not so much.
-Lots of people in Western Europe and the US are Jewish.
-The Nazis targeted specific groups: Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, disabled people, etc. It's more gruesome when they target certain people. In Russia, it was just...Bah! We kill you/send you, whoever you are, to certain death in Siberia!

As Snoink and bob both say, in their own fashion - thought-crime and free speech?

The Holocaust did, in fact, happen. If free-speech is a value, one ought to be allowed to be bloody ignorant or idiotic and say it didn't.

Cadmium: totally agree. Even morons have rights, even to be morons. If we start outlawing stupidity, there will be no more room in the jails!

Also, I don't know if this is kind of a segue, but I'd also like to elaborate on:

Why is the Holocaust remembered more than Stalin's crimes against humanity? Stalin killed just as many, if not more, than Hitler.

The Japanese also perpetrated massive war crimes that also received pathetic coverage, for a lot of the same reasons the Stalinistic crimes didn't get the news. Let me see if I can find my history notebook to give you some examples... *rummages around in room, wading through papers knee-deep* *gets sucked into the mess, gurgling*