Again - TSun

***if anyone can find the allusions, do point them out please =)

Again
TSun

TSun
(Verse 1)
If the system pushed you down then go ahead and drop your head,
but if you don't rise back up then you're better off dead,
if you can't pull yourself up then swallow the words you've said,
and if you can't escape the virus this system has bred,
then try to become Moses and plague rivers of red,
even if you fail, arise again and believe that poetry is god-sent,
so now, i rebel against Leviathan,
if i fail, rise again,
writing history with paper and pen,
make my mark on history so generations will remember when
i stood above all else with nothing but a fountain pen,
hence! No longer will it be "every now and then," when
my body turns cold, my words are there to deliver my soul,
unlike the crow, my ashes will lie beside a bed of coal,
ignite them and watch the image of a bird, birth by flame,
and be resurrected in a society burning in shame,
we started this mess so we are the ones to blame,
because soon you will realize that society is nothing but a game,
and notice that the moderators will never complain,
so sane, don't you love the irony when they proclaim,
and thus they claim, to rid of the world of violence,
while hiding guns in Fifty-One, hence the reason we are still violent,
if i have my right to free speech,
why am i also given the right to remain silent?

comments plz!

Hey, TSun!

Maybe this is forbidden or unethical, but I'm sure a mod will correct me if it is...

You're supposed to review at least two works before you post one of your own (see the Rules). I don't know much about Hobbes, but wasn't he a believer in a strong central government? An authority to hold off chaos? He certainly wasn't an anarchist. That's why YWS has rules, that's why there's Big Brother and all that. It all goes back to Hobbes.

I was about to begin an intensive review of what looks like a very interesting poem, but then your review count caught my eye. So here's my citizen's deal to you, because I'm sick of people posting who haven't reviewed anything or have given lame reviews: boost your review count to three (and please make them good ones) and I'll give you a nice long critique of your poem, to the best of my ability. How does that sound?

Hope to review this soon!

-Sophie

BFG wrote:Hey, TSun!

Maybe this is forbidden or unethical, but I'm sure a mod will correct me if it is...

You're supposed to review at least two works before you post one of your own (see the Rules). I don't know much about Hobbes, but wasn't he a believer in a strong central government? An authority to hold off chaos? He certainly wasn't an anarchist. That's why YWS has rules, that's why there's Big Brother and all that. It all goes back to Hobbes.

I was about to begin an intensive review of what looks like a very interesting poem, but then your review count caught my eye. So here's my citizen's deal to you, because I'm sick of people posting who haven't reviewed anything or have given lame reviews: boost your review count to three (and please make them good ones) and I'll give you a nice long critique of your poem, to the best of my ability. How does that sound?

Hope to review this soon!

-Sophie

sure that sounds good!, sorry im new to YWS

No problem! Don't worry about it, we all do stuff like that. I've been around here for a while now and I still don't know what I'm doing much of the time.
-Sophie

BFG wrote:No problem! Don't worry about it, we all do stuff like that. I've been around here for a while now and I still don't know what I'm doing much of the time.
-Sophie

ermm...this may sound stupid but...how long does a post have to be to count as a reivew? because i just wrote a decent length post reviewing an article, but it didnt count?

Very powerful. I like the last lines, about freedom of speech and the right to remain silent. In fact, you're too good. You are making me feel bad about my writing. Also, while I was reading it I kept thinking that it needs a set of bongos as accompaniment.

FLyerS wrote:Very powerful. I like the last lines, about freedom of speech and the right to remain silent. In fact, you're too good. You are making me feel bad about my writing. Also, while I was reading it I kept thinking that it needs a set of bongos as accompaniment.

thank you very much for your review!!
first of all, please dont be intimidated by my works, i tend to get a little too political in my poems, which may seem alot coming from a fifteen year old =p

however, my strengths are in the social political side of poetry, so we cannot possibly compare our poems (unless yours is about a similar topic).

lastly, thanks for your comment, continue to impress people with your poetry!

BFG wrote:
No problem! Don't worry about it, we all do stuff like that. I've been around here for a while now and I still don't know what I'm doing much of the time.
-Sophie


ermm...this may sound stupid but...how long does a post have to be to count as a reivew? because i just wrote a decent length post reviewing an article, but it didnt count?

Good question! You know, I don't actually know what the word count required is. And it might be different for an article, as opposed to a poem? I think it doesn't count anything that's quoted in a box, so that might affect the numbers, too. When reviewing a poem I usually write about as much as was in my first response to your poem, maybe a little more, and that seems to work. You could probably ask a mod (names in green) or someone who knows more about YWS; Snoink or someone would know, I'm sure, and wouldn't mind answering questions for a new member.

Sorry I can't help more, but I hope that helped a little!

-Sophie

BFG wrote:

BFG wrote:
No problem! Don't worry about it, we all do stuff like that. I've been around here for a while now and I still don't know what I'm doing much of the time.
-Sophie


ermm...this may sound stupid but...how long does a post have to be to count as a reivew? because i just wrote a decent length post reviewing an article, but it didnt count?

Good question! You know, I don't actually know what the word count required is. And it might be different for an article, as opposed to a poem? I think it doesn't count anything that's quoted in a box, so that might affect the numbers, too. When reviewing a poem I usually write about as much as was in my first response to your poem, maybe a little more, and that seems to work. You could probably ask a mod (names in green) or someone who knows more about YWS; Snoink or someone would know, I'm sure, and wouldn't mind answering questions for a new member.

Sorry I can't help more, but I hope that helped a little!

-Sophie

ahh i've got it now, thats 4 review counts =)

***if anyone can find the allusions, do point them out please =)



Again *I don't get the title.*

TSun *If this is your pen name, it doesn't need to be here... or below, either.*



TSun

(Verse 1) *Is there more than one verse? Is this supposed to be a song?*

If the system pushed you down then go ahead and drop your head, *These first lines here remind me so much of one of my favorite poems, Rudyard Kipling's "If". It's a great one, you should definitely read it if you haven't already.* *A good first line, eye grabbing, different, and easy to read. But I've always hated the phrase "the system"; I feel it's overused and very connected with a specific time period, full of paranoia about Big Brother and "the man" and all that. So to me, putting "the system" in the first line is setting up a war, an enemy, right then and there, and it's also setting up the type of war--rebellion--and placing the setting of the poem in the Age of Fear. This kind of contradicts with the other time indicators I've noticed, the virus and the fountain pen... see notes on them... anyway, I'm not wild about the whole "the system" thing, especially because I don't feel like you make it clear in the course of the poem just who or what exactly "the system" is, or why it's bad.*

but if you don't rise back up then you're better off dead, *"better off dead" is a bit of a cliche*

if you can't pull yourself up then swallow the words you've said, *so is "swallow your words"*

and if you can't escape the virus this system has bred, *Virus... system... seems like a computer age. See note on the "fountain pen" line about time.*

then try to become Moses and plague rivers of red, *OK, I get the Moses parting the Red Sea reference, but I'm not sure why it's "plague rivers of red"... that's not really what he did, and then it's just confusing. Do you mean, if you can't hold up as a normal person, go ahead and try to be an abnormal one, a messenger of God, a hero? I'm a little confused...*

even if you fail, arise again and believe that poetry is god-sent, *Why is god not capitalized? Are we mixing Old Testament references with pagan ones?* *I don't know what the phrase "believe that poetry is god-sent" is supposed to mean, exactly, or why it belongs in this line. Am I missing a reference?* *"Try, try again." The first half of this line's message has been said a million times before.*

so now, i rebel against Leviathan, *Hobbes's ideas on the social contract and absolute monarchies and stuff, one of the bases for the Constitution of the United States. Published in 1651--any connection with your "Fifty-One" later? I admit I have only read bits of it and I remember very little about it, so I might be missing a lot here.* *Also some kind of monster, right?*

if i fail, rise again, *How about an "I will" after the comma, or something else to make it a whole sentence?*

writing history with paper and pen, *I like this line because it seems ordinary at first, "writing" is taken literally, but then with the next two lines a figurative meaning becomes clear: this is a poet with plans*

make my mark on history so generations will remember when

i stood above all else with nothing but a fountain pen, *"The pen is mightier than the sword... Take away the sword--/states can be saved without it!"* *I like how it's a fountain pen because I LOVE fountain pens, but it seems like it's bringing in the element of time--when is this poem taking place? Or if it's in the present, does that represent a conservative standpoint? Perhaps I'm reading too much into one line, but I'm not sure there's time to develop ideas of time here, so you might want to reconsider that.* *Is "fountain pen" a reference to the Ayn Rand novel? I don't know much about it, other than that Ayn Rand is well-known for being the most conservative of conservatives, a capitalist in every sense, and that "Fountainhead" is in this tradition... but I guess that it's a really far-out connection, so probably not.*

hence! No longer will it be "every now and then," when *Is that referring to accepting the life of a poet?* *What's that "hence!" doing in there?*

my body turns cold, my words are there to deliver my soul,

unlike the crow, my ashes will lie beside a bed of coal, *Crow? Crow? Raven I could understand, but crow?*

ignite them and watch the image of a bird, birth by flame, *WHO ignites them?* *OK, I get the phoenix reference, but why's it there?*

and be resurrected in a society burning in shame, *Resurrection = Jesus, I presume?* *Sounds like the ending of Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451".*

we started this mess so we are the ones to blame, *I want more here. Everyone says that; give me something more, something new and interesting.*

because soon you will realize that society is nothing but a game, *Really? You really think that?*

and notice that the moderators will never complain, *Who are the moderators? God and Satan? The gang at Olympus?*

so sane, don't you love the irony when they proclaim, *What's the "so sane" for, and which does it refer to, the part before it of the part after it?*

and thus they claim, to rid of the world of violence, *The "and thus they claim" has got to go.*

while hiding guns in Fifty-One, hence the reason we are still violent, *Does Fifty-One refer to 1951? Sorry, I'm not getting the reference. The Korean War? The bomb tests near Las Vegas? I'm lost.* *The second part of the line is kinda lame, I think it should be nixed.*

if i have my right to free speech, *First Amendment*

why am i also given the right to remain silent? *Fifth Amendment/Miranda Rights* *Sounds like Socrates's Athens, where a good citizen was someone who was informed and up to date on what was going on in the city and outside it and would voice their opinions. It's a very powerful last two lines, kind of an excuse for the "yelling" quality of the rest of the poem. I really like the last two lines.*

Alright. So, the first few times I read it I liked it, and I wanted to invest more time in understanding it. But I'm not sure all its pieces held up to tight scrutiny. I still couldn't sum up what this poem is about. I still can't tell you what the central theme is. In essence, I suppose I still don't understand it. And I don't think it's all my naivety, even if I may have missed some references. You're writing for an audience, so your first objective is to be understood, to communicate. I think the poem needs some work in this regard. It just needs a little more of a focus, a single focus, a thread to come back to, so that the reader walks away affected by it.

Second: your rhyme and rhythm. Is this a rap or a slam poem? If it is, that's fine, that's great, I love slam poetry and have nothing against rap, but if that's the case presentation can be key not only to communication but also to the inflections of the lines, the rhythm and the general atmosphere of the poem. If it's not a slam poem or rap, I applaud you on the different and interesting rhyme scheme (you'd be surprised at how few people do aaaaa... rhyme schemes; I also really liked the way your reversed the time-honored Shakespearean couplet ending to end with a non-rhyme in contrast with the rest of the poem), but you have a heck of a lot of work to do with puntuation, variation, grammar, and meter/line-lengths.

Regarding my commentary in bold--I'm from the U.S. You might not be, I don't know. But I approached the poem with my knowledge of U.S. history, politics and government in my head. A variety of audiences is good for your poem, I figured. I'm not trying to be ethnocentric or anything. Anyway, the references I took away from it might have been very different from the ones you originally wrote in. But such is the dialogue between writer and reader...

I had fun reviewing this, I hope my critique was helpful, and I'd love to discuss it further. PM me with any questions or comments or just to chat or whatever! And keep writing! You're very original, a refreshing change!

-Sophie

Again *I don't get the title.*

TSun *If this is your pen name, it doesn't need to be here... or below, either.*

if i want my pen name to be there, then it will be there, is it illegal to have my pen name there? Also with the title, if you don't get it, then there's nothing i can help you with. It merely shows poor deconstruction of the poem.

(Verse 1) *Is there more than one verse? Is this supposed to be a song?*

yes there is, but i'm not going to post it because:
1. it will just confuse you more than it already has
2. I don't believe that some people have the maturity to understand it.

If the system pushed you down then go ahead and drop your head, *These first lines here remind me so much of one of my favorite poems, Rudyard Kipling's "If". It's a great one, you should definitely read it if you haven't already.* *A good first line, eye grabbing, different, and easy to read. But I've always hated the phrase "the system"; I feel it's overused and very connected with a specific time period, full of paranoia about Big Brother and "the man" and all that. So to me, putting "the system" in the first line is setting up a war, an enemy, right then and there, and it's also setting up the type of war--rebellion--and placing the setting of the poem in the Age of Fear. This kind of contradicts with the other time indicators I've noticed, the virus and the fountain pen... see notes on them... anyway, I'm not wild about the whole "the system" thing, especially because I don't feel like you make it clear in the course of the poem just who or what exactly "the system" is, or why it's bad.*

"The system" doesnt point to a specific time period, we are living in a system right now. And yes, it is a rebellious poem but not in the Age of Fear. The system is "bad" because we are under its' control. The system is society, the government, the educational system, the work force, the police, the secret services, the judicial system...etc

but if you don't rise back up then you're better off dead, *"better off dead" is a bit of a cliche*

it's not a cliche if it makes perfect sense in this context.

if you can't pull yourself up then swallow the words you've said, *so is "swallow your words"*

so what your saying is, I shouldnt use these phrases just because they are cliches? That's pretty pathetic.

and if you can't escape the virus this system has bred, *Virus... system... seems like a computer age. See note on the "fountain pen" line about time.*

Seriously...are you not able to deconstruct this at a higher level?? The virus is our way of life, how society functions and our lack of understanding towards certain things.

then try to become Moses and plague rivers of red, *OK, I get the Moses parting the Red Sea reference, but I'm not sure why it's "plague rivers of red"... that's not really what he did, and then it's just confusing. Do you mean, if you can't hold up as a normal person, go ahead and try to be an abnormal one, a messenger of God, a hero? I'm a little confused...*

No offense but I seriously lol'ed at this one... What else may red refer to? Perhaps blood? Then wouldnt it make much more sense? One of the ten plagues that Moses set on Egypt...and I'm gonna leave it at that...further commenting by me would only result in insults.

even if you fail, arise again and believe that poetry is god-sent, *Why is god not capitalized? Are we mixing Old Testament references with pagan ones?* *I don't know what the phrase "believe that poetry is god-sent" is supposed to mean, exactly, or why it belongs in this line. Am I missing a reference?* *"Try, try again." The first half of this line's message has been said a million times before.*

god isnt capitalized because it isnt important in this context. "believe that poetry is god-sent" is a reference to the ten commandments sent by god to Moses, and that is what i see poetry is. In case if you failed grade 10, repetition of certain words emphasizes the point of the poem.

so now, i rebel against Leviathan, *Hobbes's ideas on the social contract and absolute monarchies and stuff, one of the bases for the Constitution of the United States. Published in 1651--any connection with your "Fifty-One" later? I admit I have only read bits of it and I remember very little about it, so I might be missing a lot here.* *Also some kind of monster, right?*

Thomas Hobbes believed that society was bad in itself, hence it needed to be ruled by a elite group of individuals that he dubbed "Leviathan". The idea of this line is to show that i do not wish to be ruled by a group of people who have the same status as i, but only achieve eliteness because they had been dubbed so.

if i fail, rise again, *How about an "I will" after the comma, or something else to make it a whole sentence?*

Must i be that specific just to get a simple meaning across?

i stood above all else with nothing but a fountain pen, *"The pen is mightier than the sword... Take away the sword--/states can be saved without it!"* *I like how it's a fountain pen because I LOVE fountain pens, but it seems like it's bringing in the element of time--when is this poem taking place? Or if it's in the present, does that represent a conservative standpoint? Perhaps I'm reading too much into one line, but I'm not sure there's time to develop ideas of time here, so you might want to reconsider that.* *Is "fountain pen" a reference to the Ayn Rand novel? I don't know much about it, other than that Ayn Rand is well-known for being the most conservative of conservatives, a capitalist in every sense, and that "Fountainhead" is in this tradition... but I guess that it's a really far-out connection, so probably not.*

This line is saying that I will rise to the top of society with only a fountain pen as my "weapon", while others use bribes, money, and threats in order to reach the top.

hence! No longer will it be "every now and then," when *Is that referring to accepting the life of a poet?* *What's that "hence!" doing in there?*

hence continues the previous line. Punctuation is there for a reason...

unlike the crow, my ashes will lie beside a bed of coal, *Crow? Crow? Raven I could understand, but crow?*

The crow represents feelings of depression and also a symbol for death.

ignite them and watch the image of a bird, birth by flame, *WHO ignites them?* *OK, I get the phoenix reference, but why's it there?*

The subject would be YOU. The phoenix at the end of its' life span will throw itself into flames, the flames will kill the bird, but also give it new life. Which is saying, when I die, my death will be my resurrection.

we started this mess so we are the ones to blame, *I want more here. Everyone says that; give me something more, something new and interesting.*

What else do you need? Why not just go outside or into the heart of the city and look around?

and notice that the moderators will never complain, *Who are the moderators? God and Satan? The gang at Olympus?*

This would be the ranking: players<moderators<makers. With that in mind, the moderators would be our top dogs in society, such as judges, government officials, police chiefs, millionaires.

so sane, don't you love the irony when they proclaim, *What's the "so sane" for, and which does it refer to, the part before it of the part after it?*

So sane is referring to when the top dogs "preach" to us their new rules and changes, the way they say it. Then followed up by the next part of the line...

and thus they claim, to rid of the world of violence, *The "and thus they claim" has got to go.*

It's not going to go because then you wouldve just destroyed the flow.

while hiding guns in Fifty-One, hence the reason we are still violent, *Does Fifty-One refer to 1951? Sorry, I'm not getting the reference. The Korean War? The bomb tests near Las Vegas? I'm lost.* *The second part of the line is kinda lame, I think it should be nixed.*

Alright... fifty one refers to America's top secret military base, Area 51. Supposedly, they've found aliens and are doing tests with scary weapons. Hence the line:" HIDING guns in fifty one."

but you have a heck of a lot of work to do with puntuation, variation, grammar, and meter/line-lengths.

I'm simply going to assume you dont know what you're talking about... This poem has gone through the hands of three teachers, all with a master's degree in english literature.

Thanks so much for clearing that up for me! And thank you, too, for being so sweet and kind about it; you'd make a fine teacher--just ask your friends with the Master's degrees! Next time I admit my ignorance and put my time and effort into trying to offer a useful critique I hope they respond with your gentility. Once again, thank you!
-Sophie

BFG wrote:Thanks so much for clearing that up for me! And thank you, too, for being so sweet and kind about it; you'd make a fine teacher--just ask your friends with the Master's degrees! Next time I admit my ignorance and put my time and effort into trying to offer a useful critique I hope they respond with your gentility. Once again, thank you!
-Sophie

No problem, I hope that was helpful.
I'm dearly sorry if somethings that I wrote sounded offensive =(