Warning: Controversial/No Punches Pulled/Nitty Gritty
This topic is intended to discuss the theological basis for how we as Christians should relate to Jewish people.
Are they saved by the Mosaic Covenant? Are they damned for rejecting Christ? Is their faith the faith that saves? Should we try to convert them? Should we encourage them to remain good Jews?
This will vary between denominations, so it might be an interesting question to ask the elders in your church about, or do research about on your own.
Specifically, I'd like to look at the modern state of Israel, which was formed in response to the broad-scale genocide of jews during the Holocaust, in light of which the Christian Church failed catastrophically, with notable exceptions.
How do Christians relate to Israel? As the land promised by God to the Jews? As the stage upon which the battles of Armageddon shall be played out? As a tragic and shameful idolatry? As theologically meaningless?
What is your opinion on any of the matters listed above?
So What About The Jews?
3 posts in this topic.
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Hello there!
Haven't been on in forever and for some reason this is the first thing I clicked on, and I'd like to offer an opinion. I'm not going to pretend I know everything, since I've got a lot to learn about faith, but I do know that it is the faith in Christ that saves a person(Romans 10:9). If someone, be it a Jew or a non-Jew, does not have faith in Christ, it doesn't really matter if they're a Jew because they won't be saved anyway.
The Mosaic Covenant was between God and His people of the OT - the Jews -, but just as the covenant and its sacrifices and laws pointed towards the new covenant of the NT with Jesus as the once-for-all sacrifice and fulfillment of the law(Matthew 5:17), the Jews as God's covenant people pointed towards the way Jesus would redeem the world as His covenant people, Jews and Gentiles alike. However, as God's covenant people the Jews were given the privilege of receiving the gospel first, though many rejected it as documented in the NT. To remain a Jew of the OT without converting to the covenant of the NT, hence becoming a Christian, would be to reject Christ as lord and therefore to encourage a Jew to remain a good Jew is a very poor missionary tactic if we care at all about their souls. But the same can be said for any nonbeliever.
Concerning the modern state of Israel, it is hard to say how strong our ties as Christians should be. Obviously it has historical significance for us, and we recognize it as the land promised by God to the Jews, but as Christians we also recognize that it is but a picture of the real promised land, the New Earth, that is promised in the covenant of the NT. So for us, it is just land, and it cannot save us. That's not to say it is theologically meaningless, for as I just explained it has tons of meaning, but that meaning comes from it as a sign pointing to the New Earth and as geographically relatable to the Bible's events.
The whole formation of the modern state of Israel is a big mess, but I'm not sure if you want to start a discussion about what went wrong and whose fault was greatest. In the end, yes, some Christians did fail majorly in WWII to demonstrate their faith through their works, and I am certain there is a huge debate on how questionable their faith is. I am a firm believer in faith that is so strong it can't help but be revealed in all we do, including our works, so don't forget about those notable exceptions you mentioned. I believe that the church did not really have much to say on or out-rightly supported the formation of Israel because they felt guilty for much of their failure to stop the genocide. Despite the failures in this regard, I don't think it is the Christian's duty to aid the Jews in their fight for Israel on the basis that they are Jews.
Well, I'm pretty tired now
Hope my comments weren't too confusing, it's a bit too late for my brain to be working. Have a wonderful night/day!
~Sarra~ -
I haven't been on in forever either, and I tend not to participate in these discussions, but this is too interesting and important to pass up.
I agree with Sarra. In the New Testament, multiple Apostles declare that the Old Covenant (Judaism) has "passed away"; Jesus himself speaks of destroying the old temple, which is representative of the entire Jewish faith. I think it's significant, too, that Jesus not only took on the wrath of God, but that it destroyed him in a very literal and physical sense - he had to be destroyed, and only THEN would the 'new' body of Jesus rise. This could be, I think, a parallel of the two Covenants of God's people - the Old Covenant must be canceled before the New Covenant can come. The Jewish faith is not a means of relationship with God or salvation - it used to be, but it isn't anymore.
As with anyone who lacks a relationship with God through Jesus, this means that we have a responsibility as followers of Jesus to witness to the Jews and yes, to try to bring them to Christianity. It's simply a bit more awkward sometimes, because we believe in almost the exact same things except for that whole Jesus factor.
As for the state of Israel today... that's an interesting one. I've done minimal research on this, and the few verses I have may well be out of context... but there seem to be quite a number of prophesies in the Bible that pointed to the restoration of Israel, foretelling the rebuilding of David's kingdom and the creation of a greater and better Israel than before. Both Zechariah and Isaiah specifically prophesied the return of Jews to Israel - and there's this really cool, specific prophesy:
"I will make rivers flow on barren heights,
and springs within the valleys.
I will turn the desert into pools of water,
and the parched ground into springs.
I will put in the desert
the cedar and the acacia, the myrtle and the olive.
I will set junipers in the wasteland,
the fir and the cypress together,
so that people may see and know,
may consider and understand,
that the hand of the Lord has done this,
that the Holy One of Israel has created it."
--Isaiah 41:18-20
I think this is super cool because it's so specific and this EXACT thing happened in relatively recent history. After WWII, when Israel was made a nation, they realized that the land was completely barren and dry and basically a wasteland. Israel began using cutting-edge drip irrigation to irrigate the country, and it's done wonders for them. Israel is now a pretty decent agricultural nation.
So we can't argue that Israel isn't an important land anymore. But what we can question is its foreign policy. After all, Israel was literally God's kingdom on Earth in the Old Testament, and look how well the Israelites obeyed God then. (Hint: they were kind of terrible most of the time.) So, while I think that God wants to create a nation of Israel, I do NOT think that He wants Israel to be what it is now, constantly starting wars and snubbing neighbors. (I know very little about the politics involved in that, but I doubt that this much turmoil around Israel is necessary.)
And of course, answers always raise more questions. Now we have to ask: if we believe that modern Israel is supposed to be a nation for God's people, but also that the status 'children of God' has been moved from Jews to Christians, then should Israel be a nation for Jews, as it was created - or should it be a nation for Christians? Does God simply mean that the Jews should live in Israel again, or that Israel would become similar to what it was before - God's kingdom represented on Earth - but with the New Covenant heading it, rather than the Old? How do we go about answering these questions, and more importantly, what should we do about those answers? Should we do anything? I don't know enough to answer these questions myself without being completely pretentious (I feel pretentious enough raising them). But I think they're worth considering and discussing.
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