Religion and Suffering

...not necessarily suffering from religion.

I'm working on a short(ish) piece that takes a look at events in the latter 20th century through the 21st century, and tries to reconcile them with the existence of God[s]. It would help distinguish my characters if they had different beliefs from mine, so if you practice any religion at all, it'd be cool if you could answer a few questions with your personal thoughts and beliefs. (I'll also be setting up a thread in the Christian Writers usergroup, so don't eat me if you see this topic twice.) Also, for my reference, when you answer, put what religion you practice and which denomination somewhere in your post. ^_^

1. Why do people suffer? OR Why does [insert deity] let suffering happen?

2. Is anyone exempt from suffering? Why?

3. What makes a person "innocent" or "pure"?

4 & 5. What is sin? Why do people sin?

6. How does [insert deity here] wish we would behave? Why is he/she/they disappointed when we do not?

7. Revisiting #1 and #3: Why do innocent people suffer? (Think of events like 9/11, Darfur, Chernobyl, Hurricane Katrina, etc.)

I owe you some cookies and a critique or two if you take the time to answer--I know they're tough questions, but kind of fun when you get started. I promise.

Well, we're basically similar in beliefs, but I will answer. I like cookies.

1. Why do people suffer? OR Why does [insert deity] let suffering happen? I think suffering is a necessary thing. You could say it is because we were kicked out of Eden, but I think it goes beyond that too. I don't think it's a result of what we done, like karma. Suffering makes us stronger, and it tests our faith, and it makes us understand more of the world. If life was all amazing and joyous and super cool (Which makes the question of Eden even more interesting) then we wouldn't truly be able to appreciate it because we would eventually forget what happiness is because it needs something to be compared to. At least I think it does. The good times look better after one has suffered, and it makes life all the better. And as I said it tests our faith, but for me it often makes it stronger. Sometimes it breaks people faith, but I still think God knows what he is doing. Faith is broken not because of God but because of how people think of God, and what he is doing. If I can keep in mind "All bad things are for the cause of a good thing to happen" and that "God will take care of me no matter what" even in the worst of situations, I feel better.

2. Is anyone exempt from suffering? Why? No, because we are all human.

3. What makes a person "innocent" or "pure"? I would suppose not being born. You could say the Pope is pure but I don't really know anything about the Catholic religion or the Pope, but I don't believe in any human truly being pure/innocent, because by being human, we've sinned somehow. Okay, that sounds ridiculous. I don't mean it in the sense that we will all go to hell for being born, but that by nature we are not as good as Christ or God himself. We have the abbility to sin, and the temptation to sin, and so purity is a hard thing to keep when you're not perfect. Over the course of a whole human life time, say 100 years, it would be difficult for someone not to sin, even in small ways, even in the way that only they think or perceive is a sin. I'm not sure you could say what a child does is a sin - they often don't know better. And in any case, you could say we regain our human form of purity by asking God for forgiveness. I think that made sense? Something else, I read or heard or something somewhere the idea the infants who die in birth are pure and instantly go to heaven, because they didn't have the chance to live, and the chance to sin. I think that kind of sums up my thoughts. Not that humans=pure evil and sin, but that life has the possibility of sin, so the possibility of impurity. If anything, humans are fleetingly pure, but not altogether. Was that the response you wanted? XD

4 & 5. What is sin? Why do people sin? I don't really like the question what is sin and that's because its confusing in the way the bible presents this. (You know my problems, so.) I could say anything that goes against God, but then what goes against God? How do we know for sure? I'm sure lots and lots and lots of people would disagree with me but on a certain level there is a personal interpretation of sin, although that requires a certain sense of morality too. I don't suppose someone who kills someone and believes it not a sin also believes in God, unless he was temporal-lobe crazy and did it in the name of God. But then things our obscured by our human rules. God says not to kill, but hey if the guy is coming at you you can kill them! It's as though one sin nulls out another, for a victim. Because one is sinning against you, you have the right to sin against them...? It's really complicated. I just fall back on asking God, or praying for forgiveness if I believe I have done something wrong, and then I let it roll from there. It's too confusing, and complicated by too many things. I don't trust the mistranslated, human-tainted bible, so it's hard to know what is and what isn't a rule.

Why do people sin? I'm going to be stupid and say: because they're human. But it's really what I believe. There is no larger reason for why we sin. We're imperfect, and as a result we sin. Not all of us, and not all a lot, but it's in our fabric to do so. Some people are more predisposed to being nasty and immoral.

Oh, it also makes one wonder, does God consider it a sin if one steals to feed his family? I think there is a story about this somewhere in the bible, but I can't remember. Again, though, God forgives all if you ask so sin is real relative...and all forgivable, it seems? OK, more rambling. I've always found it odd hearing about people in the Catholic church who sin left and right then get a priest at their death and confess, and figure it that they'll go to heaven. I think God expects more out of us. We should actually try to be good, and not sin, but if we do, we're human and it's OK, rather than diving into the sin and not caring because God will forgive us. You have to have your heart in the right place when doing it all, I think. I'm not sure if that made any sense.

6. How does [insert deity here] wish we would behave? Why is he/she/they disappointed when we do not? Hmmm. He wants us to behave so that we don't hurt others? for some reason I'm being pulled in the direction of Americanisms with this one. So long as my freedom (or action) doesn't hurt another person['s freedom], then it's OK. If you think about it, most of the sins from the ten commandments will hurt someone. But then there are some, like not to worship false idols, that don't exactly fit in that category. I think that's a personal health commandment. Do not waste hours and hours doing something - or rather, don't do that and forget about God. Er. I'm confusing myself. Your questions are hard which I don't have answers for. XD I think God would be more disappointed if we claimed we didn't believe in him, or that we don't care about his forgiveness, or right out blasphemy. I don't mean in the form of atheism - I also believe that not everyone finds God, or finds him at the same time as everyone else - but in cursing God's name in somewhere, the way humans get. "My infant child was hit by car. Why did this happen, God? It's all your fault. I hate you. I'm never going to pray to you again because you took away my child. I don't understand how God could allow such a small child to be taken away." Kind of like that, only long lasting. Some of that is a result of grief, but if it is continued, it isn't healthy. God is there to comfort us, and he may not even have all the control. er, I need to go do things so I'm going to cut this one short. Bug me on it later if you want.

7. Revisiting #1 and #3: Why do innocent people suffer? (Think of events like 9/11, Darfur, Chernobyl, Hurricane Katrina, etc.)

Because other people are stupid? Or not. You have hurricane Katrina on there. But a lot of people also said that that was an act of love on God's part because the levies didn't break until after the storm had passed. It could have been much worse. (But so could everything.) Again, I think it is that suffering is necessary. It's sad - but it's life. People don't die because they have sinned, they die because that's how it is planned out. In a strange way, I don't mind death (probably because I've had little experience in other people dying) because I have the feeling that they'll go to heaven. But they all don't, so. Stupid thinking. You could say God set the clock and let tick (doesn't have a hand in the events) or that he sticks his hand there for certain reasons.

I can't say why innocent people suffer. God is the only one who knows why anything happens. (Which is a total cop out.) But I mean that honestly, I can't come up with a good enough answer for you. I'm a great blind sheep; I believe in God therefor I trust in him, without answers and all.

er, I hope that helped? And I'm Christian of no specific denomination, if you didn't already know that. You can bug me about more questions later, if you feel.

An amazing and pervasive topic we can't escape. Of course I'll participate...

I'm what I call a grumpy agnostic, and as one I feel I can't help much, since I say I can't know anything either way, but I grew up very Roman Catholic. So maybe that'll help somehow.

1. Why do people suffer? OR Why does [insert deity] let suffering happen?
People suffer because suffering is unavoidable on every level of life. Animals starve and die, plants wither, and human beings struggle. Suffering happens because bad things are unavoidable, plagues and death and decay are natural. We can't fight nature because we are a part of nature. If there is a god, I suspect it doesn't give a hoot whether we suffer or not, because in very nonchalant terms: "that's just how things go". Sometimes well, sometimes not so well. It's like setting off a pinball, and the ball's just gonna go wherever gravity and community takes it. If there isn't a god, then suffering is our response to the illside of nature. What can we do?

2. Is anyone exempt from suffering? Why?
No. Suffering is obviously felt on all levels of existence just by looking around. The rich celebrity gets cancer and has his insides eaten away, a poor person stays poor and starves, the bug gets stepped on, the good Christian has all his loved ones around him die and though he believes everyone is fated for a better place he still feels the pains of their loss, of his loss, while in life.

3. What makes a person "innocent" or "pure"?
I really don't think there is such a thing. But let's think in common terms: these words generally relate to morals and/or bodily functions. It's impossible to be mentally innocent, because jealous and greed sprout in our minds even if we fight them, and we're bound to act on them at least once in our lives. It's inevitable, as it's part of human nature. So... in that case, no one is pure or innocent. Even babies are greedy, I must survive, little things. They don't know better. Perhaps that's what makes them innocent in most eyes. I still hold no such thing exists.

4 & 5. What is sin? Why do people sin?
Sin is a religious term... but if I were to contort it into a humanist sort of way, I would interpret it as ill done onto other living things, inconsideration toward fellow organisms. And people sin because we are flawed and not omniscient, we are ignorant and don't know things and so make mistakes and hurt people. We have flares of envy and sometimes we lash out. If there is a god, it allows us to sin to better recognize the good. If there is no god, then we sin out of ignorance and sheer selfish survival instincts.
Regret is what saves us as human beings.

6. How does [insert deity here] wish we would behave? Why is he/she/they disappointed when we do not?
I think that if there was a god, it would want us to enjoy, discover, and procreate. Create life, not destroy it. And this rules above all. If there is no god, then as human beings we control everything within our own lives. And generally... human beings just want to be content, not even necessarily happy. And as for the second part, disappointment is a human emotion. Entirely human, the concept and attribution. I can't figure applying it to a deity figure. Would a god feel disappointment? I don't know. If it did, I suppose it would be toward the destruction of what a beautiful art piece nature is - organisms and non-living together.

7. Revisiting #1 and #3: Why do innocent people suffer? (Think of events like 9/11, Darfur, Chernobyl, Hurricane Katrina, etc.)
Because people with ill-intentions, with hatred toward other human beings and existence itself at times, exist. And their very existence sets off a whole wave of chaos that throws off all the other people who want to remain good. Because whether there is a god or not, human beings are without a doubt selfish,we want to survive, we're helpless to hate or dislike, we want to eat, we want to have power and control. Yes, there are good aspects to mankind. I personally adore humans and all of their flaws and cares. But I can't deny the bad in us, and because of the bad budding inside every individual, people suffer.

Phew. I hope this helped, this little view of a grumpy agnostic!

I'll start with the hardest question to answer -- what my religion is, since I think it's the hardest to explain. Technically I'm Jewish, but I was raised with my mom and dad, Jewish and Catholic respectively. I identify more with Judaism usually, the whole Jesus thing confused the holy bejebuzes out of me -- but that's another topic I don't want to delve into right now. Just know that much, and that I come from the first two of the Judea-Christian systems. I think. I'll add to this, probably, since I'm also a science person, and like the idea of reason as the highest authority. But! Anyway. I also like anthropology too much, so pardon if I start sounding like a textbook! Also, I'm a firm believer in Darwin. Some people are just too stupid to still be alive. So why the hell are they?

1. Why do people suffer? OR Why does [insert deity] let suffering happen?

People suffer -- religion is their explanation as to why suffering happens, which also in turn assumes there is a religion of the Western idea - aka a Judaism or comparative belief system. People suffer because it is part of life, but how "suffering" is defined changes for not only individuals but cultures as a collective whole. So, while an American may consider X to be suffering -- so, living without an AC and a supermarket and concrete floors -- is not suffering for another, for whom it easily may be a way of life, and one they consider vastly superior to our much more materialistic lifestyle. So suffering is all relative, to start. Also, some suffering is universal, like the want of food/water, which rather leads into the second question... also, I think that religion is the minds' (both individual and collective) answer to suffering -- the reasoning, or if you prefer the psychological, means to lessen the discord between reality and the ideal held in the mind -- much like how after getting a bad grade a student will reason it away to deal with the shock -- religion serves the same purpose, only in the greyer area of spirituality.

But on the subject of suffering! We call it suffering because we feel we're entitled to something better, where others' would call it trials or obstacles or tasks set before them by some higher power, but not suffering. And the linguistics is important, because language and words and how those words fit together shapes how we think and reason and view our world. Thus, why suffering first assumes a religion of the Western World.

2. Is anyone exempt from suffering? Why?

No (assuming suffering is not limited to just suffering, but trials, etc. too). People will think they are exempt, but in effort to achieve the state of unreasonableness they within themselves become untouchable -- that is, the effort to achieve immunity is within itself suffering, and a self-serving one at that. I think it must be part of the human condition, since if one isn't suffering in some form, one creates suffering --

3. What makes a person "innocent" or "pure"?

I don't think any person is innocent or pure -- I know children, supposedly the "purest" form of a human, who are no such characterization -- but since when has a cultural idea held? (The flip-side notwithstanding of the devil child). In any event, I think that a person is at their purest at birth, and from that point onward, deteriorates, and it's how this deterioration is handled serves as the measure of man -- only that varies for every person/culture. But, using America/Western "culture" as a collective whole, for a moment -- the more one thinks about the idea of pureness, the less pure one becomes, as one realises ones own shortcomings as told by cultural standards, however, is that not also the definition of purity/humility (not the same idea at all) -- to know one's faults? So it's a paradox -- that which could make a person pure only serves to bring to light exactly why one isn't pure, which is how one becomes pure. Cyclical logic, maybe?

4 & 5. What is sin? Why do people sin?

Sin, in it's base form, is breaking laws - written and unwritten -- of one's culture. Sin in terms of the Torah/Bible are things that hurt your neighbors, and from my limited understand, sex. So, the ones that hurt others make sense -- in surviving, we all have to live with each other, so we have to be able to stand each other, or at least not kill each other at the drop of a hat. So that takes care of nine of the ten deadly sins. So why lust? That's what interests me. Why the action that, if I can quote a House episode here, is incredibly fun, but also dangerous? Sure, it's results can be dangerous -- child bearing (both carrying and birthing). Is it that idea from which this shunning sprung, or was it the idea that anything fun can't be good? Devil's temptation, or something like that? Again, a culture's reasoning against something that doesn't fit -- in this case, something fun vs. the harsh reality of life, so there must be some reason why it exists, and it must be temptation of the devil (or similar familiars) -- even today, it's a taboo discussion topic, which also makes it interesting! Why is it taboo? We celebrate our birth days, and baby showers and marriage and relationships, all of which (ok, maybe not all relationships of the romantic sort involve sex) have sexual connotations. For all humans. In all cultures. So why is it not talked about? It doesn't (necessarily) hurt anyone, unless another sin is involved, or child birth/bearing, so why, other than the fact that it is fun, unlike most of living? (ok, living especially in biblical times and before and even still in many places now).

And why do people sin? Why do kids challenge their parents? They test limits. See how far this diety they either crated for themselves or was given to them will let them go before being struck down

6. How does [insert deity here] wish we would behave? Why is he/she/they disappointed when we do not?

Forgive me if I skip this one? ^^ Since I'm more agnostic than anything, and using one set of beliefs would be a little too difficult for me right now, I think. I'm much rather research and then answer.

7. Revisiting #1 and #3: Why do innocent people suffer? (Think of events like 9/11, Darfur, Chernobyl, Hurricane Katrina, etc.)

Blood of innocents as a determiner to good/evil, but the idea of "innocents" changes from POV to POV. So there is no such thing as "the suffering of the innocents" unless, at least in my view, it's children, and even then, most ideas any of us have of suffering would not be considered such by them, and is general cultural in most aspects -- I could use the example of child abuse and how it exists in our culture, but the same parent-child relation in another culture could be the norm -- but I don't have any specific incidents to use.

Using the idea of innocents as I attempted to explain above, innocent people don't suffer, because no one is truly innocent, and if someone believes they are, they aren't. So! Using a more cultural idea of children -- innocents are harmed by those who should, in theory "know better" but since there is no great common human moral code, there is no single person who can "know better" which makes the entire question a fallacy within itself. Innocents suffer because they are not innocent -- no one is, and then there's the idea of the father's blood on the son's hands (er, sins of the father passed down to the sons, rather). Using that idea, no one is innocent, ever. And how many have been hunted down in the course of history for their father's deeds, either renowned or shunned? There are several schools of thought on this one, but the one I want to mention here is that if each person acts for their own cause (personal or cultural), no one would believe themselves spilling the blood of innocents, but rather of the enemy -- how else is anyone conditioned for war and the killing of those who have had no direct action against you yourself? We distance ourselves from those who we perceive as harmful to our existence -- another psychology idea, but one I rather agree with.

false idols -- hurt the soul? In the eyes of someone.


Sam, I would much love to discuss this all with you!

I'll be back to edit more into this, later! But for now, it's getting late, and my brain is wonderfully fried!

I'm not religious, but in the past I've been to Buddhist lectures and meditations, so I think I'm at least a little bit qualified to answer some of these - not all of them sorry. I'm not an expert though, I can only give a basic background. Also, Buddhism is a bit like a philosophy than other religions.

1. Why do people suffer? OR Why does [insert deity] let suffering happen?
Karma - the idea of what goes around comes around. That means that if you do something selfish, something bad that hurts other people, it comes back to you and you suffer because of it. In the same way, if you do something good and make good moral choices, you should benefit from it. Even if you've done nothing wrong in this life (and that's kind of impossible - but say for example why would a little kid get cancer - surely they've done nothing wrong in their short life to deserve it?) it's because you've done something bad in the last life.

6. How does [insert deity here] wish we would behave? Why is he/she/they disappointed when we do not?
Buddha =] you're supposed to be selfish in all accounts - other people before yourself. I learned of little ways to do it, like if you have 2 cups of tea, and one looks a little bit better, give that to your friend, never take it for yourself. These are 5 sort of...rules ->

1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures. (that isn't necessarily not eating meat, just not killing unecessarily).
2. I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.
3. I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.
4. I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.
5. I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.

I found a good FAQ site in case you want to know more detailed info than I can give.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... /bfaq.html