Science Fiction Versus Fantasy

Anything is possible, but how far does "anything" go? I want to see some die hard Sci-fi and Fantasy fans debating here. I myself have posted Science fiction almost exclusively, but I believe that fantasy has greater possibilities. Yet fantasy does not have Death Stars capable of destroying entire planets. Fantasy, however, encompasses people who can shape-shift into dragons...Do you get where I'm going? For overall unlimitedness, which genre has broader horizons?
I am not talking strictly about what has been written in books, but try to be reasonable...
Something like telepathic powers I would classify as Science Fiction, by the way. Telekinesis does exist in real life, so it isn't fantasy. The ability to project flames with one's mind is Fantasy, though. (I do know a person who actually practices mental powers.)
I would have posted this in serious discussions, but I didn't want to get a moderator on my case...

Use good grammar, or suffer the consequences...

I don't think genres have "boundaries." They are meant to classify works, not restrict them to their respective fields. There is quite possibly no limit on what types of fiction we can write, we just have to use our own discretion to classify them.

I know exactly what you mean, but I'm asking whether you think the craziest, most mind-blowing stories belong in Fantasy or Science Fiction. Or you could think of it as a battle between the best of Sci-Fi and the best of Fantasy. If you could pick the most powerful character from each genre, who would win?

Suppose it's a battle between Sauron (Assume he has the Ring.) and Darth Vader. Who would win? Or is there a still more powerful champion who could eat both of them working together for breakfast? Who do you think is the most powerful?

I suppose I'll start the conversation by supposing that QAI could defeat Sauron, Ring Wraiths and all, because he possesses the essence of omniscience. He is Quantum Artificial Intelligence. He has better strategic planning abilities than a hundred of Deep Blue. He has access to weapons that could level all of Mordor before dinner was served.

What hath Fantasy to dethrone this vile digital king?

Heck, I don't think there is a crazier.

You won't have robots coming to destroy everything in Fantasy, and in Fantasy you probably won't have witches turning people's faces into frogs, or putting their arms on backwards.

Any Genre can be made crazy enough, it depends on the writer. They take in their tools and use it to make the most crazy thing they can (if that's what they feel like), and when you have a writer of all people working for that, it's going to be a scary result.

I personally think Sauron would win, assuming that Vader didn't use the Death Star to blow everything up before his arrival.

Science fiction is limited by science. If science has disproved something, a piece of science fiction cannot include that something as a major element and still be taken seriously as science fiction. As a result, stories that involve sailing off the edge of the world and journeying through the stars in a trading galley can't be considered science fiction as it is scientific fact that the world is round and people cannot breathe in space (among other things).

Fantasy, on the other hand, allows the authors to make up the rules. Gravity is inconvenient? Not a problem in fantasy. You can just create new laws of gravity or a new force that acts like gravity most of the time, except when it doesn't. The only limitations are what the author imposes upon that universe, and the suspension of disbelief of the readers. Make things too fantastic and out-of-this-world, and your readers are going to go o_O and probably put the story down because it is way too out there.

Science fiction also has to overcome the suspension of disbelief hurdle, but it's easier because science fiction has science on its side, and everyone knows that science, as crazy as it can be at times, is real. But by the same token, because science is real, whenever someone writes science fiction, one risks encountering readers that are very knowledgeable in the branches of science utilized within the story, and if the story science doesn't match up with real life science, you lose those knowledgeable readers.

With that said, there are several subtypes of science fiction and fantasy that range from as close to real as fiction can get to nothing like the universe we know. Magical realism and hard science fiction are on the realistic end while space opera and stereotypical fantasy take some elements from the real world but dispense with the inconveniences to make telling an entertaining story easier.

Science fiction and fantasy are quite a bit more similar than they are different in many respects; it's just that one tends to be more grounded in tangible reality while the other is based in the impossible imaginary.

So, Kyllorac, may I assume that you believe Fantasy has a broader scope? Tell me, what does Fantasy have that could defeat the all-knowing QAI?
This debate could be a lot of fun if you guys would loosen up and say which you think is cooler, instead of telling me about the differences between the two.

Who needs robots when a pack of golems could wake up one day and decide they don't feel like being some mage's mindless slave one day? Sauron would definitely cream Darth Vader, but as many times as QAI was defeated he could amass another horde of lethal robotic killing machines and a couple of nuclear arsenals and try again. The part I didn't mention earlier (sorry) is that his mind resides in the quantum gate network. The quantum gate network is, basically, the only way to get from one planet to another without Cyro-freezing yourself for a few billion years. Trying to kill him would be like trying to destroy every highway and automobile factory on Earth.
Anyone got a favorite Fantasy character who is really powerful? Books, movies, video games...
Please, someone, play with me! I'm BORED!

So you think Star Wars is Sci Fi, eh? Yet you have the Force, which is what Vader and Luke use, and it's basically... magic. Along with quite a few things that would be impossible in space, even with the science knowledge available at the time. There's actually quite the debate on it, with most of the in-depth answers leading towards "fantasy" primarily because of the Force.

Just try to chew on that one.

As for what could defeat an all knowing QIA, how's about an all-knowing God who isn't limited by quantum mechanics and can bend the rules at will? That's what fantasy brings to the table.

As for which is cooler? Science fantasy. Magic systems based on real scientific fact that start going just a little bit crazy with what it can do. Then you've got the basis in reality but the fun of fantasy.

To be perfectly blunt, when you start projecting science fiction into the future, and I mean really far into the future, accounting the rate at which unique knowledge is being formulated and the speed of technological advancements, you can go very crazy with it. Just pick an advancement and think about how it'll appear in 100 years. 200. 300. You can't predict it, but you can make logical considerations for what it'll look like.

When does it stop being science fiction, if you're completely making up how the technology will go, mostly based on what you want it to do and what would be cool? Is it fantasy once you're 99% positive that it'll never happen, despite your logic for the story that the technology/science will advance that way? (That, by the way, is very possible. When you consider what else could be invented and how sciences/technologies interact, especially with the outside world, then you can have a few million possibilities. It grows the farther into the future you project your setting) Or, because it's based in science, will it never be fantasy?

As for fantasy, what if you use something that's not exactly scientifically implausible, but hasn't happened yet? Is it fantasy because it's not completely plausible, or is it sci-fi because there's possibly an explanation for it?

Or do we forget about genre conventions completely and just do what's fun?

And I think that it is important to define what sci fi and fantasy are before we determine which is cooler. Because, as I pointed out in my Star Wars example, it's not completely clear what sci fi and fantasy is in this thread.

I think it's best just to forget genre conventions, because one thing I enjoy like crazy is genre blending. Alternate Universe, steampunk, cyberpunk, sci fi, fantasy, general fiction... basically just start mixing every convention out there and have fun.

And a final one: Is X-men sci fi or fantasy and why?

I think both of them are equal, because if you want a thingie that breathes fire with its mind or whatever, it can be either a species of creature (like fantasy) or an alien (like sci-fi). You can bend the rules with either one; you just bend them in different directions.

And Sauron would totally not beat Darth Vader. Darth Vader has the moral high ground.

So, Kyllorac, may I assume that you believe Fantasy has a broader scope? Tell me, what does Fantasy have that could defeat the all-knowing QAI?

Entities that can create and destroy entire multiverses with a single, passing thought that are unbound by the laws of those multiverses. ;)

This debate could be a lot of fun if you guys would loosen up and say which you think is cooler, instead of telling me about the differences between the two.

High in the Andean Alps, a tribe of peaceful shepherds once happened upon an ancient obelisk, etched all over with spine-chilling symbols. Strange things happened around this dark structure: cattle and horses would avoid it, bleating as though in pain when approaching it; men experienced a placeless dread, and, if enough time is spent by the obelisk, the dread boiled over into maddening rage. The shepherds would worship this obelisk and it would feed on their positive emotion, growing more voracious by the day. In a few years, when its fruit did ripen, the thousand-year stone would crack and release upon the world the demon known as Abodahon.

He stood ten feet tall, crowned with a flowing mane of white hair. Into his naked chest was carved a single pentagram. His hands of steel, bearing countless inscriptions in demontongue and gems the colour of fresh blood, were ready to throttle the soulless hell-machines of QAI - the awful child of mankind's pride.

Leaving QAI's human slaves dead and its machines broken in his rain-filled footsteps, the demon erased city after city in rage. After Production City G56 was reduced to a million graves, QAI finally noticed the golemesque abomination, and sent a sizeable part of its army after it. The army could do nothing to stop Abodahon's scrolls of blackened magic, but they held him in place for long enough for QAI to aim the High Orbit Nullifier at the demon's general location.

The Nullifier struck like ten thousand lightnings all at once. A white pillar of purifying fire turned earth to glass a hundred kilometers in every direction. QAI's sentries watched as Mother Earth tore its hellish womb open and swallowed what was left of Abodahon - a maimed carcass split in half by the sheer force of the device. All would be quiet for another twenty years.

In a parallel universe, a young ambitious necromancer calling himself Kronos proved to be a nuisance to the nearby farmers. They would tolerate the occasional half-rotted cow shambling out of his cave and then stinking up the villages, but the joke was taken too far when the farmers' decades-old grandmothers started showing up at their doorsteps. Armed with torches and spears, the villagers besieged Kronos' foul cave, forcing him on the run and out of the farmlands. But not before he invoked a plague of locusts upon their fields as a going-away present.

Struggling to survive, Kronos was lucky when he found another cave entrance. In a domino of fortunate events, he discovered that the cave was, in fact, an ancient burial ground guarded by the living dead. Being hailed as their master, he strode into the cave as if he owned the place, and soon found the single most life-changing item in his life: the eldritch lore, the book with pages made of skin, the tome of the damned, the masterpiece of Mad Arab Abdul Alhazred -- the forbidden Necronomicon.

The plasmatic verse scabbed over the ancient flesh with a mixture of both ink and blood would surely drive a simple man mad with but a glimpse, but Kronos learned its dark secrets gradually and carefully. It were only a decade before he was able to raise entire cemeteries at a distance of many miles. His empire of evil grew, swallowing lesser tribes and kingdoms whole. And yet, despite having crushed most of his world's human population, the same restraint that allowed him to read the Necronomicon without losing his mind made sure that the power did not get to his head. But there soon came a moment when the leather-bound archive of black magic could teach him nothing more. Now an insatiable thirst for more power chipped away at his sanity, and the vile necromantic rituals performed over the years drained his body of colour and vitality.

Perhaps that is why, when one day he found a note scrawled in blood affixed to one of the many bones on his Skull Throne, instead of investigating, he heeded its advice without reservation. The note spoke to him of untold power and unspeakable destruction, along with instructions on how to achieve it. So, in one day, he rounded up ten thousand virgins from all across his lands, tattooed their flesh black in daemonic names, and ordered his priests to set the sacrificial blades in motion.

The virgin blood boiled as Kronos stepped his desiccated foot into it and contorted in waves as he waded further to the centre of the cistern. Upon fully submerging the necromancer, the blood vaporized in a flare, leaving the cavern in a dazed silence. Only a single silhouette walked through the evanescent mist.

He was twelve-feet tall; skeletal and leather-bound wings spread outwards making the figure even larger than his already huge stature made him. His left arm was metallic, with inset gems the colour of fresh blood, and his white hair reached down to his shoulders. A metal crown with two uneven horns rested upon his head.

"WE ARE BECOME ABODOS!", he bellowed. "BRINGER OF DEATH, DESTROYER OF LIFE!"

His wings tearing the air apart, he smashed through the top of the cavern and erupted from the mountaintop in which the cavern sat. But the world was no longer his own: brown splotches of villages became great metal spires stretching out of the sky; beasts and men were replaced by stone which spoke and moved; great birds of iron zoomed through the clouds, and Abodos knew that somewhere even beyond the clouds and the blueness of the skies, a mechanical eye was trained on him and watching his every move.

In that very moment, a wind of lead blew, bullets thirsting to pierce his daemonic hide. Feeble human slaves operated scorching rays of blood and diamond which carved channels into his skin. The metal birds screeched through the sky, unleashing burning wasps which buzzed right at him and turned into raging fireballs when they reached him. And amidst this howling chaos, a thundering voice resounded through the air, booming and shivering with might: "Submit to the authority of QAI or be nullified."

And he became aware then that although he was in Abodahon's world, he was no longer Kronos nor Abodahon; he was something much more.

Legs like colossal pillars threw him into the sky, piercing him through one of QAI's metal birds. Whirring shells sliced the air around him, and flak shrapnel eviscerated his wings - only for them to grow back a moment later. A tentacle that was as if made of rising water snatched him out of the sky, throwing him downward. Just as what was once Kronos lusted for power, QAI lusted for information - and it had to take a closer look.

A giant machine which seemed less a coherent being and more a swarming hive of metal tendrils ambushed him from a metal cave and attacked him, trying to hold him; its super-sensitive measuring devices scanned every inch of the demon. But in mere instants, he broke free of the mechanoid's grasp, and roared into the sky, shaking the very clouds.

Right away, thousands of QAI's enslaved human warriors keeled over, dropping their weapons. Their bones crunched and moved by their own volition inside their still conscious bodies. Twisting masses of sinew and skin, their very skeletons transformed them from the inside, weaving living flesh into grotesque abominations. Like locusts, they arose into the sky, suffocating daylight from the doomed earth beneath. Some grew around their weapons, and those which manned turrets now churned their metal and took the large-calibre weapons with them, firing at the concrete sepulchres around them. Only a small swarm of abominations was required to tear apart the tendril-bot. But not before the dying mechanism relayed its gathered information to the watchful eye in the sky.

Once again, Abodos rose into the air, spearheading the hellborne army behind him. In minutes, he flew over one of the machine cities, where heartless robots force-bred humans to make more slaves which would not drain the power grid. He bellowed in the sky, and the buildings shattered and cracked as abominations seeped and poured out of the newly made holes, joining his swarm. Automated chaingun turrets vomited fire and lead at the sky, only to be torn into ribbons in moments. From hundreds of miles away, from the sky, different machines threw beams of burning light at his flock, but they too only lasted while outside his reach.

Travelling seven days, the brood of abominations erased all in its path and grew as it did, whether it be machines or humans. Corrupted guns drew blood; jury-rigged high-power lasers ignited oil and gasoline. But in the early morning of the eighth day, Abodos witnessed something else he has never seen: a vertical machine-city, extending into the sky like a needle. Lightnings jumped from electrode to electrode, each the size of an elephant; waves of heat so intense that birds cooked mid-flight rippled through the air from enormous radiators. And at the very top, almost out of eye's reach, were three letters: QAI.

But just as he was about to direct his night-children to tear apart the machine's mind, he sensed a movement. Far in the sky, from that elusive eye spying his rampage; the smallest of glimmers at first, but then a streaking white line, like a tear-drop from the gods. The line grew longer and its head grew into a small dot, then larger, then larger still until it was the size of a coin. And just as he realized that it was a falling object, the object smashed into the vast field between himself and the city of machines, knocking abominations out of the sky and making him reel and shield his eyes from the flying debris.

From the rubble and smoke walked out a contraption Satan himself would see only in a traumatic nightmare. Standing on four spider-like legs, it was twice the size of Abodos. Its trunk was wider at the top and tapered forward, making it look similar to a bear about to leap at an unsuspecting target, and four robotic tentacles writhed around its midsection. From its head radiated long spikes in a crown-like fashion, circling a large glowing glass eye that watched him for so long. Unlike all other machines, which were gray and white, this one was black and red. Abodos could only smile in anticipation as he waved his metal hand forward.

The swarm of abominations fell towards the machine, screaming like rabid animals, wind whistling through jutting-out bones. Lasers and guns were fired, spikes and scythes were homed in on the robotic guardian in front of them. Their numbers blocked out the sun. But the Guardian was ready.

It tilted its crowned head forward, so that it looked like a spread-open hand anticipating the abominations. Lightnings licked the rays of the crown, and it began rotating, faster and faster. A high-pitched whine filled the air from inside of the machine signifying capacitors being charged and power matrices adjusting their calculations. The crown spun now so fast that it seemed only a blur, lit alight with lightnings. The Guardian bent its legs, as if preparing for a jump, then suddenly straightened them out.

At that precise moment, the crown stopped to a dead stand-still, and the lightnings surged forward at the undead torrent of abominations. Like a filter, it expanded into a cloud of electrified gas, and swept through the flock's ranks. The air filled with the smell and sound of sizzling flesh, and abominations rained from the sky. Abodos, taken by surprise, became engulfed in the electrical cloud, and blown backwards, carried along with the burning wave of destruction until it finally dissipated many kilometers in the sky.

Stripped of his army and wounded, the demon roared in pain and threw himself down at the Guardian, gauntlet aimed right at it. But the machine was quicker: it intercepted him with one of its tentacles and threw him into the ground, using his own power against him. When the demon attempted to right himself, the machine charged another devastating attack and unleashed the cerulean wave just as Abodos straightened out. The wave caught him at his back, knocking him over and dragging him along the ground for ten kilometers. As soon as it stopped, the Guardian landed right next to him, its portable rocket engines flickering and dying out.

With great effort, the demon stood up again. His body was striped with long scars and massive burns smoked with charred skin. Blood stained his torn ceremonial robe. Through the tear, the robot scanned a body that was not one, but two; the left side was pale and wiry, and the right side was mighty and decorated with half a pentagram. A huge stitch right down from the neck joined the two halves. The demon's head dropped forward, and his hair obscured his eyes. Moments later, his gauntlet got far too heavy for him, and he dropped on his knees, then fell forward.

The Guardian approached cautiously, but when it was only meters away, raygun aimed at Abodos' head, the demon suddenly rose his fists and smashed them on the ground, making it tremble. His great body rose up, bent forward and slouching, like a gorilla. The cooked abominations moved as if by magnetism towards Abodos, coalescing into a fleshy mass around him. The mass boiled and squirmed, some awful transmogrification taking place inside. It quickly swelled in size and stretched like a leather egg. The Guardian's raygun had no effect on its tough hide, so the machine fired its rocket engines and landed several kilometers back, preparing its engine of destruction for another electric assault.

After swelling to the size of a large mansion, the egg finally burst from the top, vile liquid surging forward. The creature inside - lean like a lion, muscular like a bear, and with a head like a coyote, but with a boar's tusks - crawled out, then got up on its four legs and shook off the remaining slime. Abodos' second form was covered with both brown fur and diamond-hard scales, and its name was Kronodahon.

The savage horror pounded its front legs on the ground like a bull, and charged with a rumbling growl. But the Guardian anticipated this, and was already charging its crown with impatient lightning, humming and whirring. As the beast was only a kilometer away from it, it unleashed the potent devastation in a single concentrated orb, straight at Kronodahon. The charging demon was too huge to dodge the attack, and so the ball of light met the creature head-on. But the beast rammed right through it, the electric flows trickling down the sides of its belly. The Guardian immediately released its rocket engines, but it couldn't get high enough fast enough - Kronodahon leaped into the air and smashed over the hapless robot, immediately tearing its titanium gut open, triggering fountains of oil and sparks which violently interacted with each other, letting loose a roaring inferno. The heat set fire to the beast's fur and melted its scales, revealing skin scratched with glowing wards, which flickered off one by one. The hungry fire melted the beast's tough hide, and streams of fat flowed down and mixed with the oil, igniting and feeding the chain reaction. Eventually, Abodos' animalistic outer shell completely withered away, leaving only the winged demon behind. By that time, the flames calmed and died out, leaving only little bonfires whispering at the wind around crackling electrical parts.

Abodos tore the Guardian's head-section off, which still zapped and crackled. Even though it was only a machine, he could see a millennium of hatred, torment and frustration in its whiteless eye. The crown cracked, some mechanisms grinded within it, and the Guardian stated to charge one final attack. And then, at the same time, something happened to the sky again.

It was as if a hunter was gutting his prey. The blue of the sky parted in half, revealing a starry blackness. Tearing the hole in the shape of a giant eye, the light in the centre was its pupil, growing and brightening. At first, Abodos thought it to be the Guardian's twin, but then something made him realize: this was no machine. In fact, the High Orbit Great Burning Nullifier turned its eye of destruction right at him.

As the pillar of purity rushed towards the ground, the Guardian continued to pour power into its main cannon, going into critical over-charge. When Abodos saw this, he tore the Guardian's eye off and thrust it at the sky as it released its wave of killing static.

The two powers clashed in mid-air, creating an explosion that swept the clouds off the sky. But the black scar healed, and the Nullifier began its weeks-long cycle of recharging. By this time it was old technology, and its colossal power output was matched exactly by the Guardian's desperation strike. Abodos stood amidst the destruction, badly wounded but full of strength, and he looked up at the gleaming tower labeled QAI in the sky.

"You may now provide reasons for your continued existence," the machine's voice resounded through the air. Abodos said nothing, and lifted his metal gauntlet into the air.

"Your attack cannot succeed, creature. My hull is impenetrable. My armies are inexhaustible." Abodos extended his begauntleted arm in front of him, holding it with his other hand as it began to vibrate and little wisps of black energy trailed off its surface like smoke.

"Because there is no chance of success for you and it is only a matter of time until my armies reach this place, perhaps we could negotiate a cease-fire." The heavy gauntlet trembled and glowed with power, and the air around it shimmered as if over a hot rock on a summer day.

"My machines have finished fencing off an area for you. It has plenty of grazing-ground for a lifeform like you. I even threw some people in because of my boundless generosity." Abodos lowered the gauntlet, and began walking towards the building with a scowl on his face.

"You are walking in the wrong direction, lifeform. The reservation is behind you, not in front. Just go there and we'll live in peace. We won't have to try to kill each other or even talk if we don't feel like it." Abodos increased his speed, breaking into a run first, then spreading his wings and soaring high into the sky.

"CEASE YOUR ATTACK, CREATURE. DO NOT MAKE ME WISH TO PROLONG YOUR INEVITABLE DEATH." After reaching a critical height, the demon sharply turned downward, and cast himself towards the gleaming tower far on the ground. A vortex of wind formed around him, and his gauntlet, extended in front of him, heated to become red-hot. Abodos roared in anticipation, his speed continuing to increase.

"YOU WILL REGRET THI--"

When the blow connected with the endless walls of QAI's cranium, the Dark God of Balance In The Multiverse had no choice but to channel the excess destructive power sideways, completely wiping out two adjacent universes. The metal shell liquefied, then turned to vapour the next moment, and then simply blinked out of existence. The continent on which it was housed now boasted a massive crater in its centre. Seismic shockwaves rippled through the planet and rode around it five times over. Men's heads exploded and machines' circuits shorted out in a thousand-mile radius. The QAI was no more.

And although men cheered when they saw their electric overlords crumble and the walls around them fall from the destructive earthquake, it was only in a few moments that they saw the great shadow standing before them, blocking out the sun -- the great shadow with spread wings like an ancient, desiccated bat, its red eyes narrowed in glee for the upcoming feast and reign of blackness.

Ahem.

tl;dr, fantasy all the way.

Science fiction is cooler and Fantasy is sweeter.

carbonCore wrote:The cooked abominations moved as if by magnetism towards Abodos, coalescing into a fleshy mass around him. The mass boiled and squirmed, some awful transmogrification taking place inside. It quickly swelled in size and stretched like a leather egg. The Guardian's raygun had no effect on its tough hide, so the machine fired its rocket engines and landed several kilometers back, preparing its engine of destruction for another electric assault.
After swelling to the size of a large mansion, the egg finally burst from the top, vile liquid surging forward. The creature inside - lean like a lion, muscular like a bear, and with a head like a coyote, but with a boar's tusks - crawled out, then got up on its four legs and shook off the remaining slime. Abodos' second form was covered with both brown fur and diamond-hard scales, and its name was Kronodahon.

Good grief, there's a religion lurking here, I can smell it. That's torn it, I'm going to organize a Kronodahon religious group here page.php?id=1386

Jesus Christ, cC. 0.o
I didn't think it was possible to write that much in a lounge post.

I'm going to second Yoda:

Science fiction is cooler and Fantasy is sweeter.