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The Lord of the Rings––Plagiarism?



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Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:23 pm
Sionarama says...



J.R.R Tolkien went to college at Oxford University. He was inspired by the Saxon/ Scandinavian tales like Beowulf and even took his elfin language from it. But where did he get the idea for the books? Did they just magically appear? Are you for or against plagiarism? Find out!
This is the paper for L.O.R. fanatics. Post your ideas, comments, and expressions here.

My argument FOR plagiarism:
While looking through some books, I spotted the interesting name Fafnir. I read the story and gasp. Here is the story as I read it:
Heimndr is the dwarf king. He has three sons: Otr, Riegn, and Fafnir. One day, Loki ( the scandinavian trickster god) mistook Otr for and otter and killed him. Heimndr is infuriated and demands blood money for this disgrace. Loki agrees to fill an otter's pelt with gold and sticks in it their cave. But what they don't know is that there is this ring that gives the wearer immense power but with a price (sound familiar yet?). A curse. Fafnir and Reign here of this ring an kill their father in the process to get it (Sounding even more familiar??). Now Fafnir doesn't want to share the ring with Reign so he runs away with it and turns into a giant worm-dragon. While Fafnir is a worm-dragon terrorizing villages, Reign goes and gets a hero named Sigurd who kills the mity beast and destroys the ring.
This story was turned into Siegfried by Wagner. Now, I call this plagiarism because this story was published by an author and unless one of you has a document of Wagner telling Tolkien it was o.k. to use his story, this has to be plagiarism.
Last edited by Sionarama on Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:54 pm
Jagged says...



There isn't a copyright on mythology, and making allusions/references/parallels is a well-know and accepted device. Plus, while the stories have similarities, they're different enough to not be from plagiarism.
Heck, if you really want to point out similarities with Wagner, you might want to look more to the Ring of the Nibelung, in which the dwarf Alberich sets to forge a ring which would allow him to rule the world, and then curses it when it is taken from him, saying "Whosoever holds the ring, by the ring they shall be enslaved."
Seriously, though. Both Tolkien and Wagner have taken from the Norse sagas. It's not plagiarism, it's having the same sources.
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Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:01 pm
Sionarama says...



that's a great idea but Wagner still made it into a book-ish thing, he published it first. If he didn't–– well–– I wouldn't be having this conversation. You still need to ask to use ideas/same topic.
Like if I publish a book about Harry Potter without asking J.K.Rowling for permission that is plagiarism.
Hope I've helped!
~Sionarama :smt047
"You may not be educated well in the areas of etiquette and the like as a princess, but you do throw some bashing good parties!"
Not all princesses are pink sparkles.
Exhibit A
  





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Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:06 pm
GryphonFledgling says...



*moved to Fiction Discussion and Tips*
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Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:08 pm
Jagged says...



Not when the source material is in the public domain. Example: about a kajillion people have written books based on the Knights of the Round Table / The Search for the Holy Grail. Do they have to ask each other permission? No, they do not.
Same for the Hellenic wars, most historical fiction, anything mythology-based...
Your example is irrelevant. Rowling created that universe on her own, setting stories in it would be fanfiction. But if you wrote your own magical world, even with similarities, as long as you made it different in general with no outright copying plot devices/characters/whatever, then you'd be good to go.
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Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:13 pm
Sionarama says...



What if I set my story in Hogwarts? and my character is Merry Popper? I would have to ask permission! :smt047
Last edited by Sionarama on Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"You may not be educated well in the areas of etiquette and the like as a princess, but you do throw some bashing good parties!"
Not all princesses are pink sparkles.
Exhibit A
  





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Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:14 pm
Jagged says...



Similar as in close to each other, or exactly similar? Examples please.
Plus, naming conventions can be played with. Two novels may have Alice and Bob as main characters, without being considered as having copied one another.
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Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:21 pm
Sionarama says...



What if I set my story in Hogwarts and my MC is Merry Popper??
"You may not be educated well in the areas of etiquette and the like as a princess, but you do throw some bashing good parties!"
Not all princesses are pink sparkles.
Exhibit A
  





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Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:25 pm
Jagged says...



You might be able to pass it off as a parody, but you'd probably have to discuss it with Rowling first. The similarities are too obvious. If say, your MCs were adults in a wizarding world that had no exact similarities, it might work.
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Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:27 pm
Sionarama says...



Jagged wrote:, but you'd probably have to discuss it with Rowling first. The similarities are too obvious. .

exactly! Please look up characters for Wagner's book and LOR and you'll see the similarities!
~Siona :smt038
"You may not be educated well in the areas of etiquette and the like as a princess, but you do throw some bashing good parties!"
Not all princesses are pink sparkles.
Exhibit A
  





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Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:11 pm
Jagged says...



But again: your example is done to a ridiculous degree, and your source is a published book that is under copyright.
Tolkien and Wagner took their own inspiration from Norse sagas and mythology, which are free from any such copyright restraint, and furthermore, while a number of elements were the same, they went differently. For heaven's sake, Tolkien wrote a trilogy (plus The Hobbit plus the Silmarillion plus other unfinished pieces published posthumously by his son) while Wagner made an opera.

tl;dr your example is too direct a resemblance, and, with what little of it there was, was a direct continuation/parody of Rowling's work. Tolkien and Wagner drew from the same source, but each made it into something different and distinct.
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Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:54 pm
GryphonFledgling says...



There's a difference between having something that is "plagiarized" and just "similar".

For example, if you were going to have a character at Hogwarts, you would probably need permission, seeing as how that's a specific name and place that Rowling has created. Similarly, if you had a wizard named Gandalf you'd need permission or else you would be plagiarizing. If you're obviously stealing a specific idea from someone and claiming it as your own, you are plagiarizing.

However, there are many, many books out in the world with very similar plot lines. Many, many, many romances have been written with and plots that are eerily similar. Eragon is constantly criticized for having characters and plotlines obviously very influenced by The Lord of the Rings and Star Wars. However, they aren't the same people and the plot isn't the same. It's really, really similar, but Paolini's not plagiarizing.

Thing is, there are some classic plot lines and elements to stories that have been around for ages and while one author might be especially known for their interpretation of it, it doesn't mean others can't use something similar. The classic example is the epic fantasy plot (band of heroes seeking ancient relic to stop evil). Tolkien's probably got the best known example of it, but it's been around and there are hundreds of other original books with a similar basic plotline.

It's like if you see an actor you like and you love their clothing style, so you dress like them. That would just be being inspired by them. However, if you wear exactly what the actor wears and insist that you are them, that would be similar to plagiarizing them (and be really creepy).
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Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:27 pm
Sionarama says...



I see your points. Both of them. And I agree. Completely. Tolkien did make a trilogy out of it and it is just similar to Wagner's. It's just, when I first saw it, I was in shock. My hero––plagiarizing?? It could not be! So I posted this on YWS so I could get your views and ideas. Thanks so much! I hope we can talk more!
~Siona
"You may not be educated well in the areas of etiquette and the like as a princess, but you do throw some bashing good parties!"
Not all princesses are pink sparkles.
Exhibit A
  





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Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:43 pm
Snoink says...



Plagiarism is when you directly copy whole sections, or directly copy and then modify it just the slightest amounts... for example, putting "he" where "she" is and so on.

Also, plagiarism is different from copyright laws... you should research that. Harry Potter is copyrighted, which makes it different.

As far as Tolkien's work, it seems more like a highly modified retelling. Unless JRR Tolkien directly from Wagner, I'd cut him some slack. Otherwise, a lot of retellings, such as "The Lion King" (Hamlet plot), "Ella Enchanted" (Cinderella plot), "O! Brother Where Art Thou?" (The Odyssey), and so on would be considered plagiarism when they're clearly not. There is a big difference.
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:49 am
Layla says...



Helloo :P
well..before I start....thank you for that LOVELY PM you sent me. :?
Buuuuut...
Honestly,if this guy has gotten big from writing this story, then there must not have been any complaints about plagiarism from anyone. Yes, there may be some coincidents, buuuuuuuut, it may not be the same thing. :wink:
I hope someday that someone will walk into my life and help me realize why it never worked out with him or anyone else.
  








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