Young Writers Society

Hello again! Sorry for spamming this forum. I've just had a plot bunny bite me and it's not letting go. Thus much research must be done.

So, I have some questions. Please note that these mainly revolve around high/epic fantasy.

1) What are the most annoying and commonly recurring fantasy cliches you've come across?

2) What do you look for in a fantasy novel?

3) What would make you put a fantasy novel down straight away without even giving it a second chance?

4) What would be the best fantasy novel ever?

5) What's the best race/species that you have ever come across in a fantasy novel?

6) What's the most original fantasy plot line you've come across?

Please take the time to answer as it's very important to my novel. And to me. And to the fantasy world at large. Thank you!

Cosby

1) What are the most annoying and commonly recurring fantasy cliches you've come across?
This isn't so much a cliche as annoying in general... I find the full ramifications of choices and general major life changes aren't taken into account to their full potential. So you get a disturbing lack of attachment to previous friends, family, home(s), possessions, ect.

2) What do you look for in a fantasy novel?
The world, and something more than just romance. I also check how many novels it will be, because authors have this tendency to take forever to come out with the next book, and the number of books required to tell the story seems to keep increasing (rarely will I pick up an unfinished series). Mostly I look for a touch of blackness, and very little "white" in the morality. I love my spies, poisons, backstabbing, and anti heros.

3) What would make you put a fantasy novel down straight away without even giving it a second chance?
An internal logic flaw in the social setting, character psychology or, in general, something that makes absolutely no sense to happen and is just there Because the Author Wanted It.

4) What would be the best fantasy novel ever?
Something cleverly constructed with ramifications for all actions that may or may not be nice, and proper character development and self discoveries.

5) What's the best race/species that you have ever come across in a fantasy novel?
A race known as Stormwings, in Tamora Pierce's Immortals Quartet. They're these ugly things with human faces/chests but steel wings and talons that stink of rotting flesh and go to battle grounds to mutilate the corpses. But they you get to know them. They were dreamed by a person who wanted nobody to see glory from dying in battle. You also discover more about their code of conduct, moralities, and generally get to know them. They were never in straight up evil territory (more like "get. away") but never move into good territory, like the author was backtracking. (I've read a race or two where they were suddenly given a good side because they'd been nothing but pure evil before and the author realized that might not be the best idea)

6) What's the most original fantasy plot line you've come across?
Original fantasy plot line? What is that?

In all seriousness, fantasy is one of those genres that's been done to death. You have the "quest to find yourself while mingling with the fate of the world" plot (usually in a straight up fantasy world), the "paranormal romance" plot, the "fantasy outbreak" plot (suddenly there's magic and the MC needs to deal with it) and the "guardian" plot (get something from A to B, or keep something from being attacked).

The most original fantasy plots I've seen aren't novels classified as fantasy, actually. They're usually a mix of genres and fantasy is much more the minority.

1) What are the most annoying and commonly recurring fantasy cliches you've come across?

I've been fortunate that my literary upbringing has come largely through a filter. I read what my dad has on his shelves. He only keeps what he would reread, and he doesn't buy what couldn't possibly be good, and the result is that I've never had to weather the worst of Tolkien-rip-offs.

However.

Kick-butt rebellious princesses are annoying.
Any sort of 'girl struggling against society's expectations of gender' stories tend to grate on me.
While we're at it, any sort of heavy-handed theme in ANY book drives me insane.

But since we're talking specifically about fantasy, I'd say Rebellious Princesses, Evil Villains who are evil just because they are, and on that note, whole things about discovering something that's supposedly evil isn't really evil at all, just misunderstood.

Also, Eragon.

2) What do you look for in a fantasy novel?

The same things I look for in other books. Quality writing and a great story.

In fantasy specifically, a world that I can immerse myself in and understand and love/hate/know and want to return to.

3) What would make you put a fantasy novel down straight away without even giving it a second chance?

Assuming a book passes the cover test (because you can judge fantasy books by their cover, and I know that books with women on the front in questionable clothing aren't going to be my thing), and then the back cover summary test (no princesses or other females struggling against their societal role as a female, no out-dated concepts), the next biggest turn offs are bad writing. Clunky description, bad sentence structure, bad characterization from the start. And especially bad dialogue. I can't stand bad dialogue.

As for *fantasy* stuff that would turn me away instantly...blatant cliches. Bad characterization.

Bad characterization. Let's go with that.

4) What would be the best fantasy novel ever?

One that would be a novel to rival Tolstoy, Twain, and the other greats. One to which the magic and the fantastic weren't just something to make it more entertaining, but rather so integral to the story in the best of ways. With so many fantasy novels, if you stripped away the fantasy elements, it would be blah. But with this best fantasy novel ever, stripping away the fantasy elements would be impossible.

5) What's the best race/species that you have ever come across in a fantasy novel?

I'm assuming we're not counting Tolkien? Because I'm partial to his, even if they are a little old-fashioned. The dragons of Pern are also another favorite.

I think the key here with making races is to make sure that these aren't just humans with other features.

6) What's the most original fantasy plot line you've come across?

I object to Rosey's answer, even if there is a lot of truth in it. I've just personally never subscribed to the notion of "Nothing' original any more, everything's derivative of everything else." That always seemed liked excuses for laziness to me. Obviously no one's busy pressing boundaries if they're busy just copying everyone else.

Boundaries need to be pushed in fantasy. They definitely do.

The most original fantasy plot I've seen in a while, though, would be To Ride Hell's Chasm by Janny Wurts. Loved that book. Standalone fantasy. No quest. It's a mystery. In a fantasy world. With awesome characterization.

And, then, I like the Deryini books by Katherine Kurtz. She's a medieval scholar, so her medieval worlds are accurate. Her prose is too dense for modern readers, though, which is such a pity.

I object to Rosey's answer, even if there is a lot of truth in it. I've just personally never subscribed to the notion of "Nothing' original any more, everything's derivative of everything else."

Yet, your most original list had a mystery/fantasy hybrid in there, which proves my point some of the most original are blends of genres. The other needs a bit of an amendment to the original.

What I meant was the whole business of using a fantasy element because it's Popular or using it without really thinking the whole idea through. To go with the codifier of modern Fantasy, Tolkien had thought behind his actions and that made the story strong enough to found a genre off of. From what I've heard of A Song of Ice and Fire, it uses pretty standard fantasy conventions but has them to medieval accuracy— with bloody and (apparently) addictive results.

Therefore, if you are going to just do a "standard" fantasy (of any particular type) you will never get originality. If you take "standard" and examine everything beneath the surface (which often has a lot of pop culture references, thanks to the standard being standard thanks to overuse), then you find all the gory details that make a good story. Or, you genre blend and build around a plot that's not exactly typical for the genre.

That is what I meant. If you are simply fantasy for the sake of fantasy without research and/or other influences, then you have no originality.

I think we're getting caught up on the difference of a fantasy novel versus a fantasy plot and, in this case, mystery novel and a mystery plot.

To Ride Hell's Chasm, for instance, has a mystery plot. A princess goes missing, and the captain of the guard is called on to investigate. Various people are suspected. But the novel is still a fantasy.

The plots you mentioned, Rosen, are all the quintessential fantasy plots. But I maintain that the genre is open to all sorts of plots that just haven't been added in yet, because people have been busy with the quest ones and the guardian ones. I mean, think of all the plots that can come from a world that isn't ours!

So, if you do a standard fantasy plot, of course you're not going to get something original. But George R.R. Martin... that's what he did differently, and so successfully. Even if he has some of the elements, the plot's different. It's epic in scope, with kings (and a queen) fighting for thrones and people dying and all sorts of stuff, but the story line is original. The same way Tolkien's was.

We're busy talking of all this originality business because people looked at Tolkien's work and instead of looking at everything he did, they just said, "We must send them on a quest!" With slow variation.

I maintain the originality came from research. He looked at a world and saw the conflict within, so proceeded to exploit it. He didn't simply write a fantasy trying to fit his world into the standard plot— he created a world and worked on the plot from it (or something of that effect).

I do concede your point that it is possible to create an original fantasy plot itself, but you have to dig for it and dig pretty deep in such a saturated genre. Which is why you have to look past the shiny fantasy and see the blood under the layers upon layers of pop culture polish.

I suppose my point of view comes from my logic. I never go out to build "a fantasy", per say. I've found when people go out and build "a fantasy" they fall far too deep into stereotypes. Go out and build/find characters in their setting. That is simply a story, unbound by any genre conventions. The only difference so happens that they're in a world with magic.

Original stories per genre do exist, but they pull fairly heavily from things not of that genre (I've noticed). Sticking within the social expectations of the genre is a sure way not to be original.