Young Writers Society

I love strong heroines: Beka Cooper from Tamora Pierce's Beka Cooper trilogy, Del from the Tiger and Del series by Jennifer Roberson, etc. In my writing, all the MCs are female (I should probably branch out but meh), as am I.

However, there is one problem: I am finding it difficult to make my characters feminine and yet still kind of tomboys, accepted by the men (most of them are in a predominantly male line of work), and badass. To add on to that, they are all warriors- soldiers, law enforcement, rebels, etc.

Also, to clarify: sexism isn't the problem here. She works as a soldier/law enforcement in an order founded by a woman. Right now, no one cares whether you are a girl or a boy so long as you can fight- they need soldiers, they get them. Women are generally healers or mages and men are generally fighters, but that's just the usual preference of the individual.

It's simply that they are tomboys in a predominantly male world and I'm having a hard time writing them as tomboys instead of boys.

I hope that makes sense. Any ideas?

Thanks for taking the time to read this,

Feather

Hey Feather! Hope all is well!

This is a great topic. I feel a lot of writers struggle with this. By no means am I the authority of "good female characters" (I like to think I'm not the authority on anything, because I always have more to learn), but as I write mostly female characters, and am once myself, I feel as if I may have something to add.

I think the best way to make strong female characters is to not think of them as "female": but to think of them as people. People have varied interests, ideas, and thoughts. While a girl may love flowers, poetry, and dresses, she may also enjoy football, getting into fights, and have short hair. People are people. Their interests are broad and fascinating, just like anyone else's.

Now, when specifically talking about sexism in the workplace, there's three ways to portray and combat this: 1. have the men judge them, have them bond/the girls prove themselves, have the men see them on the same level (the most commonly done), 2. have the men not have an opinion of them, have the girls prove themselves in some way, have the men see them on the same level (more realistic), and 3. have no sexism in your book at all. The men never think the girls need to prove themselves, the girls never need to prove themselves, everyone's on the same level always (very rarely done).

Portray respect. Maybe there are some things a guy coworker is better at and some things your MCs are better at. Have mutual understanding and reliance on one another. I think this is the best way to have them on the same level.

If this didn't answer your question or make sense, please let me know! And if you'd like to talk more about this, reply or PM me!

@GoldenQuill:

It isn't the sexism so much in this circumstance, because in the setting there isn't much room to underestimate someone. There's a war, and they need soldiers, male or otherwise. Also, the founder of the order was female, so that changes things. Of course, because there are more men than women, there is some sexism and that sort of stuff and she isn't necessarily accepted as easily, but it isn't a superiority thing usually so much as a 'that's a girl' type thing. I hope that makes sense.

My main difficulty is this: guys have different values than girls based upon their innate abilities that they naturally have- for instance, upper body strength. Girls don't usually innately have that. Instead, they are more flexible with stronger legs, so upper body strength isn't used to determine rank. Thus, the heroines have different skill sets than the men that aren't necessarily valued in the male society.

However, I want my MCs to be able to fit in with the male characters and earn their respect, as well as having some male qualities and being tomboys without being all but a man.

This probably reads as mindless babbling because it is getting kind of late, but I hope that all made sense.

To start, I want to say that not all strong female characters are badass. Truly strong female characters are defined by their mental strength, their determination, their perseverance, and ultimately their personality. I don't think any character, not just female, can be defined as strong purely because they're badass. I like a combination of both.

In your post you said you wanted your females to be feminine, but also tomboyish. You can achieve this by showing that they're feminine first; have them wear frilly clothing, or pay extra attention to their hair, etc. Then, to make her more tomboyish, show her unafraid to get dirty; have her roll in the mud and not care about messing up her clothes, have her get in a fight and not care about her newly painted nails. (Don't take that literally, lol. That was just to give you an idea of what I mean)

You can also have her be unafraid to speak her mind. She tells it like it is and she has every bit of a sailor's mouth as the men. This would enforce her more masculine side and maybe make her more accepted by the men.

I hope this helped you. If you have any questions or need further help, I'd love to give more advice.

No, no, I completely understand where you're coming from! This makes a lot of sense!

There's a few perspectives I can offer here -- hope at least one of them will be of help.

1. Innate talent isn't the same as something honed specifically. Thus, a girl can still be much stronger than a guy, if she spends more time fighting and training. (I'd assume a man in the army would spend a lot of time fighting and training, so this one may be the least useful.) You can show the girls training harder and longer, and having them rewarded for it -- coming out on top and being better.

2. Tall women with broad shoulders are stronger, on average, than short, lanky men. Women are most commonly smaller than men, but not always -- meaning it's not impossible for a woman to match (or exceed) the strength of a man. Keep this in mind! Again, you can make it not even a problem; have men and women have the same strength and no comments or thoughts otherwise. I'm not sure this is what you're going for, however.

3. (Why do I always have three points? So specific.) We are valued and respected for our differences. Thus, you can show that women are great in lower body strength and men are great in upper body. You can have them rely on each other for missions or battles because of their different strengths, and portray an even relationship by having them accept one another like this.

In order for men to accept them, just make some interests similar. Again, a girl can love football, cursing, smoking, and fighting and still be very "girly". Unfortunately, neither of your MCs will probably get along with "every" male, because, in life, we don't get along with everyone, but you can make them respect or like something they do. Maybe they like playing pool. Maybe they're killer at ping-pong. Hey, maybe the guys like something that's seen as traditionally "girl-y"!

I'm realizing I may be not giving you what you're looking for, because I've been trying to erase my mind of things that are seen as "feminine" and "masculine" and assigning them all as just "things that humans like", but that's what I've got currently! I hope it helped a little!

Yes, you've been very helpful, @GoldenQuill! I'll probably pester you with more questions when I'm more awake and have mulled your words over for a while, but thank you so much for taking the time to respond!

And @EvangelineFire, same to you- thank you!

I'm with @EvangelineFire on how physical strength isn't everything.

Anyway. So. I hate tomboys. I hate the idea that characters can't be both strong and feminine. All the media that we consume teaches us that strength is synonymous with masculinity.

That simply isn't the case.

I like to write fantasy settings that don't have an innate, built-in patriarchy. In these, while men are more traditionally in fighting roles, and women in caring roles, the sexes are still seen as equal - they have equal rights to inheritance, ruling etc. There is normal physical combat in my novel, completed by traditional knights and soldiers, but also magical combat: practiced by women and men alike, and based on strength of mind and soul, so everybody has as fair a chance at it as everybody else. In fact, I have one character who makes one misogynist comment once, then spends the rest of the novel being a little bit scared of his female counterparts, because they're so well-trained in magic.

So my first question is: why does your society have to be patriarchal?

And even if you have a reason for that, your female characters don't need to prove themselves, they don't need to be "one of the guys", they don't need to "prove they're just as good as the guys", unless you want that to be a major part of the story. It just doesn't have to be.

I work in a traditionally male field. The main people who perpetuate the idea that men are better doctors than women are other women, and occasionally male patients. Whenever I talk to a male colleague about it, they are shocked and horrified at the concept. So it doesn't have to be that way in real life either.

Anyway. So your characters don't have to be tomboys to be accepted. They can wear fighting gear but still be feminine - still have their hair braided, and still wear sensible girl armour like, breastplates don't need to have literal breasts just because it's a woman wearing it, they can still be covered up and protected. They can still have a higher voice than men. They can still dislike vulgar jokes. They can still look forward to a bath. They can still be accepted by "the guys" but not have to be "just another one of the guys". Do feminine girls have male friends? Yes. Do they have to have a majority male friends to be accepted by society, do they have to say things like "I get on better with boys, there's less drama" then spit in a bucket to prove that they're likeable as characters? Heck no! And it sounds like you have a group of girls in your story, so it's okay if they're each other's first port-of-call for support. They don't have to isolate themselves from each other to try fit in with the famous "guys".

And if you're worried that physical strength isn't compatible with femininity, all you need to do is look at all those instagram girls lifting things and doing things that don't seem possible, all while in a pink crop top and leggings. I may not like the #strongnotskinny movement but gosh darn, it really does do away with that myth.

Strong =/= masculine.

[Sorry, this is just something I feel really strongly about]

I think @StellaThomas really hit what was niggling at me the whole time I was reading this thread.

Have a look at this list of people's votes on top female movie characters (better than me just listing a bunch). You can't argue that these are really strong women--Hermione, Princess Leia, Ripley, Scarlet O'Hara, and Clarice taking the top 5. Are any of them tomboys? Ripley is the only one who's "one of the guys," and IIRC there wasn't any major "proving herself" scene.

The concept of a female character needing to prove herself and win the acceptance of her male peers is inherently sexist.

Did Scully ever need to act "like a man" to earn Mulder's respect? Nah. Is Scully feminine? Sure. Is Scully strong and super badass? Definitely. Is Scully a tomboy? Not really.

So I think Stella uncovered the deeper issue: does the society need to be misogynistic? From your descriptions, it sounds like it's not really intended to be about misogyny, and the society is pretty different to our own.

If the answer is yes, then that changes things. If it's something you're specifically trying to address and need to have the FMC overcome bias and judgment, then the other posters have done a great job of suggesting ways she could do that.

If the answer is no, you may want to consider how much of our own society and prejudices you're carrying over to this fictional one that aren't necessary.

Question rephrased at the top, @StellaThomas and @Megrim. The problem isn't her proving herself, it is her being accepted- two different albeit similar things. There isn't much sexism as there just tend to me more men who want to become soldiers and more women who would rather be healers, and where there is prejudice, it shows up on both ends- men can't be healers because they're male and women can't fight because they're female. It isn't very common, though, and is generally frowned upon.

The MCs are tomboys because that is just their personality, besides the fact that me being who I am would have a ridiculously hard time writing a girly girl, because I'm not one. I'm a tomboy with a brother who hangs out with guys all the time- I could write a guy better than I could a girly girl.

Then I think writing them as "people" as opposed to thinking of their personalities as male or female will serve you better. Just give the women diverse interests and you should be all set.

Will do, @Megrim. Thanks for taking the time to read & reply!

The thing about "proving herself" and "being accepted" is they're the same situation, different wording.

You prove yourself in order to be accepted. By saying she needs to be accepted, you are saying she needs to prove herself. Everything else you're saying in the story says she should automatically be accepted because there isn't a sexist bias here, so she shouldn't have to do anything except exist to be accepted.

I'd take a look at How To Fight Write's female characters, women, strong female characters, and feminism tags (note- there is some swearing to be found at those links!). There's going to be a lot of overlap, but you can get some new content. These are two trained fighters who answer fighting based questions and get into the worldbuilding aspect of how to write a sexism free society around fighting, and just how much you have to toss out in terms of preconceived biases.

Like, your idea about where muscle naturally builds? That can be trained, and it's far less natural than you think. Toss it out. The concept that women rely on smaller size? Another thing that can be trained (to account for), another thing to toss out.

You have to build your men differently, as well. A lot of misogyny is trained, so if you're in a "need soldiers" mindset, you need to do a lot of work on your own biases. Men won't see the feminine as devalued. Men won't see a girl who wears dresses as weaker— so long as she can get her legs free to fight when important, she's fine.

Stories like this require as much author work as worldbuilding, because once you start to pick apart your biases, you realize just how many of them there are. Why I suggested reading blogs like the one above; they are consistently good at explaining what is involved in fighting, and how to write female fighters accurately. You can even ask them a question yourself!

Thanks, ladies. I find myself in the shoes of a male who has lots of female characters, so this is all very helpful. And I did read several Anne McCaffrey books...

I was reading a prompt on another site that had a very interesting quotation. It was from a female author who, when asked how she made her men's dialog so realistic, replied that she imagined men, left to themselves, "talked very much like human beings". Does that help?