z

Young Writers Society


LGBTQ+ Acceptance in Ancient Greek Times



User avatar
590 Reviews

Supporter


Gender: Nonbinary
Points: 1234
Reviews: 590
Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:15 pm
View Likes
Mageheart says...



I recently decided that one of the characters in my novel, Perse, is transgender. Because he's immortal, and lived as a mortal during Ancient Greek times, I was interested in knowing how people typically viewed transgender individuals during those times. I tried looking it up online, but the most information I found was related to the acceptance of gay individuals. I would really appreciate some more information on both of those things so I can make Perse's history seem more realistic.

Thank you in advance!
mage

[ she/her, but in a boy kinda way ]

roleplaying is my platonic love language.

queer and here.
  





User avatar
176 Reviews



Gender: Male
Points: 1983
Reviews: 176
Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:36 pm
View Likes
sheysse says...



Depends on your definition of transgender, since in ancient Greece there were two.
The first is a female taking on a male role (or vice versa, but not very common, since a female's main role was giving birth and raising the children). This wasn't very accepted due to the fact that the Greek were not used to it (similar to present day, actually).
The other is groups who changed gender literally. There were worshippers of a certain God which name I forget who would castrate themselves and wear feminine clothing. The Ancient Greeks often found unique things pleasing, and considered them to be set. So, transgender (and gay) individuals were surprisingly well respected.
Hope this helps a bit. :)
  





User avatar
1081 Reviews



Gender: Male
Points: 220
Reviews: 1081
Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:43 pm
View Likes
Virgil says...



This is super interesting to think about, actually. I've looked up some of it and it may not be completely accurate as you'd probably have to check more than one source for this to be historically accurate in portraying the LGBTQ+ community, but pederasty is something of a relationship between an older man and a younger man and I've also found acceptance of gay individuals and relationships there, but I suppose that's not exactly what you're looking for.

In terms of how they viewed transgender individuals, I don't quite know exactly, but I have heard it symbolizing wisdom if you've bridged the gender gap in that time. Particularly I'm pointing to Tiresias, a blind prophet who happened to spend seven years as a woman and was told to have more knowledge because of this.

Cupid is said to have been originally portrayed as an intersex figure rather than male which is what Cupid is usually known as today. I'm going to go ahead and suggest to check out these links: http://paleothea.blogspot.com/2008/03/t ... -know.html and http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/02/tran ... ent-times/ though it's flexible in interpretation because like Sheyren said, it really does depend on your definition of what 'transgender' is at this time.

Will Review For Food - Always taking review requests!

Discuss the last piece of media you consumed in Media Reviews!
  





User avatar
383 Reviews



Gender: Male
Points: 19607
Reviews: 383
Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:42 pm
View Likes
Sujana says...



To add to the conversation, a repost:

One word: Pederasty (if we're talking cis male gay action here). ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty ... ent_Greece )

More words regarding that topic: It's a rather squicky topic even today, mostly because it involved a lot of young boys and we do not usually associate ourselves with uh--well, you know what I mean. However, it's there, and with a bit of digging there's a lot more to come from that, so.

Second word: We're talking Greece here right? Right? Greece was crazy, man. As much as I value your research motivations, we're talking the ancient mythologies where almost half of all stories could be summed up to "Zeus couldn't keep it in his pants", and one of his victims was Ganymedes, the most beautiful human man in that time period, who Zeus literally stole away while Zeus was in the form of an eagle. If you're aiming for a serious tone, fine, stick to historical accuracy, but you could easily get away with crazy shit if you were fun enough about it.

Third word: Didn't get much from transgender men google searches (mostly because back in those days they'd probably be seen as female, and therefore not entirely important to talk about) but there is a cult of the goddess Cybele that allegedly castrated themselves and referred to themselves with feminine pronouns. Wikipedia ain't the best source but: ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgend ... ent_Greece ) ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele#Minor_cults )

Hope your story goes well.


Also, @Sheyren , you're probably talking about the goddess Cybele earlier on, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were other cults that practiced such traditions. Best bet? Dionysus. Since he was raised a girl to hide him from a vengeful Hera (remember what I said about Zeus and his pants? Yeah, that's his origin story), he's become something of a patron saint to anybody questioning their genders. I really, really wouldn't be surprised if there were more than a few transgender folk in that cult.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief."

Ecclesiastes 1: 18
  





User avatar
176 Reviews



Gender: Male
Points: 1983
Reviews: 176




User avatar
25 Reviews

Supporter


Gender: Male
Points: 1122
Reviews: 25
Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:39 pm
View Likes
Gringoamericano says...



From what I heard, the Ancient Greek society was super misogynistic to the point where when there was a homosexual relationship, one half was regarded as pretty much a normal person, and the other half was regarded as a woman, and was thus seen as lesser.
"Can't break an omelette without making a few eggs"

From the ashes of the old YWS Chat; it's the Unofficial YWS Discord server. Come join us!: https://discordapp.com/invite/UhSr7uW
  





User avatar
1272 Reviews



Gender: Other
Points: 89625
Reviews: 1272
Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:14 pm
View Likes
Rosendorn says...



Two questions:

What city in Greece? Do keep in mind, Greece was actually a collection of city-states that had wildly varying differences in social norms. Sparta vs Athens is probably the starkest, but both are technically "Ancient Greece"

Female-to-male, or male-to-female? I'm assuming you mean FtM, because you use "he", but I'm not 100% sure and just want some confirmation.
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





User avatar
590 Reviews

Supporter


Gender: Nonbinary
Points: 1234
Reviews: 590
Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:19 pm
View Likes
Mageheart says...



Thanks for the replies so far, everyone! I really appreciate it. <3

@Rosendorn: I was thinking of creating a fictional town, so I'm not really sure. I didn't think about how the different parts of Greece would have different social norms. And Perse is FtM. ^_^
mage

[ she/her, but in a boy kinda way ]

roleplaying is my platonic love language.

queer and here.
  





User avatar
1272 Reviews



Gender: Other
Points: 89625
Reviews: 1272
Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:42 pm
View Likes
Rosendorn says...



Just between Athens and Sparta (which were by far not the only two city-states, but they are the most well known since they're so polarized against each other), there was a huge difference between gender standings. Women in Athens were hardly better than slaves, meanwhile if a Spartan woman died in childbirth she was buried like a man who died in battle.

So, if you pick a general region of Greece/city-state they were most influenced by, you'll get a much better answer. "Ancient Greece" is a giant misnomer because there really wasn't any one place. There were literally hundreds of city-states, each one with slightly different cultural nuances that would impact gender, gender roles, and the ability to transition!
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





User avatar
3821 Reviews

Supporter


Gender: Female
Points: 3891
Reviews: 3821
Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:07 am
View Likes
Snoink says...



You should look at the story of Tiresias, if you have not done so already! I think Hera got super mad at him because he said that having sex as a man was better than having sex as a woman. XD
Ubi caritas est vera, Deus ibi est.

"The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls the butterfly." ~ Richard Bach

Moth and Myth <- My comic! :D
  





User avatar
1125 Reviews

Supporter


Gender: Female
Points: 53415
Reviews: 1125
Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:56 am
View Likes
StellaThomas says...



Two more points of gender fluidity/similar shown in Greek mythology - though not necessarily Greek myth:

- Achilles apparently lived as a young woman in King Lycomedes' court and left his daughter Deidamia pregnant with Neoptolemus

- Hermaphroditus the son of Hermes and Aphrodite who was so beautiful that a water nymph merged herself with him and they became one androgynous form

I'd say you probably have a lot more freedom to work with than you might think!
"Stella. You were in my dream the other night. And everyone called you Princess." -Lauren2010
  





User avatar
1272 Reviews



Gender: Other
Points: 89625
Reviews: 1272
Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:15 am
View Likes
Rosendorn says...



I keep thinking about things!

Because Ancient Greece was so big and varied, you don't actually have to stick to even the same versions of the gods. Like... Aphrodite had a bunch of origin stories and even different names depending on where you were in Ancient Greece. As a result, you can take stories such as Tiresias, or Achilles, or Hermaphroditus and modify them according to your made up city state. You can make them super sacred myths in your particular region, instead of side-stories.

Or you can even make up your own mythology that pulls from bits and pieces of various Greek beliefs— which did happen in real life a lot— into creating the environment you want. This can border into the line of historical fiction, but as I said, this did happen in real life. Gods were not these fixed things, nor are cultural norms, so you can create things based in reality and it gets pretty hard to say if it's actually not reality.
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





User avatar
212 Reviews

Supporter


Gender: Female
Points: 12011
Reviews: 212
Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:57 am
View Likes
ScarlettFire says...



This thread is fascinating and very informative. I think I'll keep it in mind if I ever venture into Ancient "Greek" territory! <3
"With friends like you, who needs a medical license?" - Paimon, Aether's Heart


“It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission.” - Grace Hopper.
  








Seeing is believing, but feeling is the truth.
— Thomas Fuller