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Realistic Zombies?



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Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:21 am
TwinCityKitty says...



I'm thinking about possibly writing a zombie apocalypse story in the future. I have a concept for what the zombie epidemic could be like, with an aim for the most plausible model of un-death that I can imagine.

In this universe, "zombie-ism" is a multi-stage disease, with progression as follows:
Stage One - flu-like symptoms; muscle aching, fever, cough, vomiting, and diarrhea.
Stage Two - paralysis, hypothermia, muscle contractures, and dramatically slowed heart and respiratory rate; this stage is often mistaken for death and rigor mortis.
Stage Three - regained mobility, tissue necrosis, aphasia, confusion, wandering, ataxia, and severe cognitive impairment; this stage makes victims look and act like zombies.

I haven't decided whether the "zombie" infection is viral, bacterial, fungal, or other.

In this universe, there is a genuine disease pandemic and it is genuinely terrible. But the Zombie Apocalypse only happens because of people's panic and their belief in zombies.

What do you think?
  





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Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:48 pm
Zolen says...



We already can make zombies like in the movies, mix the flu with rabies and its pretty much going to result in the same stuff. If you want something that rots quickly, add the black plague. Vala. People will go mad and start eating people after a few weeks of being infected, and some of the early portions will make them look like they died and came back to start munching on people.

But what you said works as well. Stage two would mean your version of zombies probably would only last a few weeks as most before their bodies fail though.
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Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:19 pm
TwinCityKitty says...



Zolen wrote:Stage two would mean your version of zombies probably would only last a few weeks as most before their bodies fail though.


Yeah... Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to make the zombies very hardy. (It's not a proper apocalypse if it doesn't last a while!) Maybe it's highly contagious, and people are contracting the disease faster than they're dying off.

I have a theory that zombies are actually pretty cooperative, or at least gregarious, with each other. You never see zombies wandering around alone, and they never seem to attack each other. Maybe they are more social or communicative than they appear, and they are able to survive because of their cooperation with one another.

I imagine the "rotting" aspect would be something like syphilis or leprosy when those conditions are left untreated.

I welcome any ideas! I want to make this pretty believable. :smt003
  





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Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:55 am
Kale says...



It can be apocalyptic if it's widespread enough. Some diseases have a long incubation period, so a lot of people can become infected without anyone being wiser. And if the trigger is environmental, then a whole bunch of people will come down with the symptoms at the same time, without any prior warning or way to treat it.

That's not even taking into account asymptomatic carriers who go around infecting others without even knowing.

Something else you might want to look into is Vodun zombification. There are multiple explanations out there, but the one with the most scientific backing involves the use of tetrodoxin to create the zombie and regular regimen of a variety of hallucinogens to keep the zombie docile.

In any case, your premise is already a lot more realistic than most zombie apocalypse settings just by having the zombies be a result of panicked perception rather than being actual undead, and I don't recall seeing this angle before, so let me know if you start posting it up on YWS.
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Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:37 pm
StellaThomas says...



Hey! Your zombie ideas sound so exciting! I've recently spent a lot of time thinking about how I would write a zombie story and I think your ideas sound good, and your progression is super believable to me. One of the things in the original zombie panic could be that anybody with flu like symptoms basically gets witch-hunted and sent to a hospital for quarantine and from there gets infected with the zombie virus. Or something.

I don't really know what questions you're asking except for ideas. One of the things I would research - that I'm sure you have - is the normal protocol for disease control: what's a cluster, an outbreak, an epidemic, a pandemic. Usually the people in charge of CDCs know what they're doing but you could have it that some other governmental bodies who don't really how to control diseases take charge because people are scared. I don't know, that's something I'd be interested in.

Virus is normally the pathogen but I guess anything goes. Mycobacterium include TB and leprosy so they're pretty good for tough epidemics! I think more important than that is the decision of how you're going to transmit it - is it going to be air borne, by fluids, by bites? And then the rotting - you could have, say, muscle and skin breakdown, but their organs stay functioning for longer? They don't even have to rot if you don't want them to! I guess you can do it whatever way you want :)
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Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:53 pm
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Tenyo says...



Did you ever watch 'Up'? Did you cry? I didn't, (honest >.>) but I know plenty of people who did. It's a story about a man who attatches a load of balloons to his house and goes on a joy ride with a scout, and it's a crazy plot that would never be scientifically plausible. But the sentiment is real, and that's what gives it such a huge impact. The world is full of different religions, many of which don't have a scientific basis and yet each one is as real to it's follower as the air they breath.

If you want to make the model realistic it's not so much about getting the technobabble right, but about getting the human element right. Symptoms mean less until you see them for yourself- until you can feel the coldness of someone's skin or smell the decay in their breath.

You could also work this to your advantage because using description to explain the disease instead of directly naming it as a 'zombie-like' disease will allow you to play with your readers own stereotypes and expectations.
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Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:26 am
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TwinCityKitty says...



Kyllorac wrote: It can be apocalyptic if it's widespread enough. Some diseases have a long incubation period, so a lot of people can become infected without anyone being wiser. And if the trigger is environmental, then a whole bunch of people will come down with the symptoms at the same time, without any prior warning or way to treat it.


Aye, that's brilliant! What would be an example of an environmental trigger?

Kyllorac wrote: That's not even taking into account asymptomatic carriers who go around infecting others without even knowing.


Very true! My protagonist is going to be one of these.

Kyllorac wrote: Something else you might want to look into is Vodun zombification. There are multiple explanations out there, but the one with the most scientific backing involves the use of [tetrodotoxin] to create the zombie and regular regimen of a variety of hallucinogens to keep the zombie docile.


Vodun zombification is a trip! :shock:

I'm not married to any particular cause of the zombie epidemic, but right now I like the idea of some kind of alien parasite.

Kyllorac wrote: In any case, your premise is already a lot more realistic than most zombie apocalypse settings just by having the zombies be a result of panicked perception...


Thanks!!! :-o

I think that the zombie pathogen was original spread like ebola or HIV -- only through contact with bodily fluids. However, with the craziness of the zombie apocalypse came "survivors" holing up together, shooting Stage 3 zombies in the head, leaving bodies unburied. All these chaotic conditions have caused the pathogen, like norovirus, to become aerosolized.

So now the zombie pathogen is airborne, waterborne, and insect-borne. Nice job, people.

Kyllorac wrote: let me know if you start posting it up on YWS.


Will do! I'm in the middle of moving to a new house right now, so I may not be all that active.

Thanks!
  





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Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:49 am
Rosendorn says...



I haven't seen her name come up yet, so take a gander here. Seanan McGuire created some very scientifically sound zombies via viral processes. However, this is talking genuine dies come to life instead of your appears to die but never actually dies. It might still give you some ideas!

The main takeaway is she made it two viruses together are required to be present in the human body; both are harmless on their own, but combined, they end up producing zombies.
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Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:53 am
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TwinCityKitty says...



StellaThomas wrote: One of the things in the original zombie panic could be that anybody with flu like symptoms basically gets witch-hunted and sent to a hospital for quarantine and from there gets infected with the zombie virus. Or something.


Ooh, very good! I hadn't considered this until late, but I think I should at least allude to what happened during the early stages. (i.e., by looking at the recent Ebola outbreak in west Africa)

StellaThomas wrote: I don't really know what questions you're asking except for ideas. One of the things I would research - that I'm sure you have - is the normal protocol for disease control: what's a cluster, an outbreak, an epidemic, a pandemic. Usually the people in charge of CDCs know what they're doing but you could have it that some other governmental bodies who don't really how to control diseases take charge because people are scared. I don't know, that's something I'd be interested in.


That's also something I need to investigate!! Thanks!!! :smt003

StellaThomas wrote: Mycobacterium include TB and leprosy so they're pretty good for tough epidemics!


True, that! I actually knew someone who came down with a mycobacterium abscessus infection, and that sh*t is evil! :shock: (She recovered, thankfully, but it was close.)

StellaThomas wrote: I think more important than that is the decision of how you're going to transmit it - is it going to be air borne, by fluids, by bites?


All of the above, and then some. At first, the pathogen is going to be spread only through contact with bodily fluids. But with the panic comes behaviors like shooting or violently stabbing Stage 3 zombies, leaving corpses unburied, or fleeing to unsanitary or hyper-sanitary conditions. All of these cause the pathogen to become aerosolized, like norovirus.

So by the time the story starts, the pathogen is airborne, waterborne, and insect-borne.

StellaThomas wrote: And then the rotting - you could have, say, muscle and skin breakdown, but their organs stay functioning for longer? They don't even have to rot if you don't want them to! I guess you can do it whatever way you want :)


I'm thinking that zombies don't feel pain, so they don't respond to the body's signals that something is wrong; a zombie will walk through a glass wall or jump off a cliff and just keep going. This causes them to be vulnerable to infection and tissue necrosis, hence the apparent rotting. My zombies are vulnerable to suffocation, starvation, or catastrophic infections just like any other living organism.
  





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Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:58 am
TwinCityKitty says...



Tenyo wrote: If you want to make the model realistic it's not so much about getting the technobabble right, but about getting the human element right. Symptoms mean less until you see them for yourself- until you can feel the coldness of someone's skin or smell the decay in their breath.


I'm planning on having plenty of human element, both among the zombies and among the unaffected protagonists

Tenyo wrote: You could also work this to your advantage because using description to explain the disease instead of directly naming it as a 'zombie-like' disease will allow you to play with your readers own stereotypes and expectations.


This is one of my favorite things to see in horror stories! BBC's short-lived miniseries "Jekyll" was a great example of this!

Thanks! :smt003
  





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Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:01 am
TwinCityKitty says...



Rosendorn wrote:I haven't seen her name come up yet, so take a gander here. Seanan McGuire created some very scientifically sound zombies via viral processes. However, this is talking genuine dies come to life instead of your appears to die but never actually dies. It might still give you some ideas!

The main takeaway is she made it two viruses together are required to be present in the human body; both are harmless on their own, but combined, they end up producing zombies.


Oh my gosh! I hadn't heard of that. I'll be sure to check it out! :D
  








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