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So I had this idea...



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Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:54 am
XxXTheSwordsmanXxX says...



I have an idea here that I am not sure the merit of it. I have written about five chapters and the end of the story but I am not sure if I should continue. The more I write the more it feels like a rip off of a different idea. But here it is.

In this particular fantasy tale there are tribes of Wolf-hybrids that are very similar to Native American culture. They even play lacrosse. The basics of the story is that a human hunter is nearly killed and brought to the village of the wolf-tribe. Before sentencing him to death a member of the tribe offers to care for him until he is well enough to travel on his own. Both are social outcasts. Him because he spends more time in the wild than in civilization and her because her conception was the result of rape.

As the human gains strength, he proves his skill with a bow to the tribe and is slowly accepted as one of the tribe.

This entire idea was sprouted from the idea of a mating ritual I call "The Great Hunt". The females old enough to mate are sent into the forest at a head start. The males or "hunters" are then given a very powerful herb called Dutral that enhances their senses to the point of practically seeing scents. The males then hunt the females. Those that are together when the sun rises are mated pairs as their diety, the moon, has fated.

I would like to know what people think of this idea because I am starting to think that it wasn't worth actually making and maybe I should add this idea of "The Great Hunt" to a different story
  





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Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:05 am
Kale says...



Well, I do see two major issues with the idea as-presented.

1) When you say "Native American culture", which tribe are you using as your model?

2) If "The Great Hunt" is part of the culture, what qualifies as rape, and why is the offspring ostracized by the whole tribe?

If you could answer those questions, it would help give me a better feel for your idea.
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Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:52 pm
XxXTheSwordsmanXxX says...



I am sort of designing my own. But mainly I am basing them off of a combination of Huron, Cherokee, and the Sioux as they were hunters and gathers that were not all that nomadic.

As far as the great hunt. It is a matting ritual, it comes before any actual mating. Once it is over there is a large celebration and then there is a Sort of honeymoon afterwards.
  





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Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:28 pm
Kale says...



Those tribes also come from very different geographical areas, so I would be leery of mixing and matching. The stationary nature of those tribes also doesn't match up with the naturally nomadic nature of wolves.

You still haven't answered my other questions: what qualifies as rape, and why is the offspring ostracized by the whole tribe?
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Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:11 pm
XxXTheSwordsmanXxX says...



I am being cautious with how I mix the concept but they are more of....baselines for me to build off of. I'm not trying to recreate them. And you are also right about the nomadic nature of wolves. But as there are both nomadic and stationary Native American tribes, I have also create both kinds of wolfish tribes.

What qualifies as rape in this idea is this. While there is still the concept of heat, females are able to get pregnant at other times of the year. As with wolves, these mated pairs remain bonded to one another, so any force outside of that bond is considered rape. The view I will attempt to show, through the course of the story is that because the child was produced from something outside of the Goddess' design it is not given the respect as member of the pack.
  





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Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:18 pm
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Rosendorn says...



A few things, here.

First off. Lacross is Iroquois, not a general "Native American" custom. The possibility exists it spread to neighbouring nations, but it's not guaranteed. Also, the versions of the games across tribes are very likely different. Considering the Iroquois Confederacy isn't mentioned, that tells me there's a lack of research into Native Americans and their individual customs.

Outside of that added tribe blended in without specifying, blending is virtually impossible from political systems of these peoples alone. Each lifestyle is wildly different from the next. For example:

- Sioux is a name for a multitude of peoples within the Great Sioux Nation, including Lakota, Eastern Dakota, and Western Dakota, and depending on how you define the term there are more tribes included. It is not by any means a place to pull from for a singular culture, because a singular Sioux culture does not exist. It's a name for a group of tribes that speak the same language.

- The Huron are known as the Wyandot. They were a confederacy, not a tribe, and had a multitude of large cities (2k+ people) that relied on agriculture and trade. Therefore, they were not nomadic, at least not completely.

- The Cherokee have undergone a ton of reorganizations, migrations (forced and voluntary), and tribe structures so when you say you're pulling from the Cherokee Nation I must ask "Which one?", both in terms of time period and which major branch of the nation (there are three major nations, currently). Some of their organizational systems might be city based, some might be nomadic, and until you pick a specific point in time you can't know what their standard was.

These are all these facts found with a single google search and the wikipedia article for each nation. I have linked them where appropriate so you can begin your research.

In light of this, I'm baffled for why these are getting blended. Would you take a combination of Italy, Norway, and Holland? That's what's going on doing here. There are three places with as much diversity between them as individual countries, if not individual continents, and they're considered "the same" when they very much are not.

On top of this, I do not know if any of the tribes have wolves important in their religion. If not, then that is continued butchering of very specific cultures. Native American religions are just that, religions, and have their own deities/important figures. Adding figures where they don't belong is a surefire way of misrepresenting a culture.

Right now, this is extraordinarily disrespectful to a multitude of Native peoples, and set up for misrepresentation, stereotypes, and poorly developed characters. "Native American inspired" doesn't exist, and the fact there are whole ethnic groups whose names that are not meant to be a culture, misnamed peoples (both by using incorrect names in the case of the Wyandot and Sioux, and by referring to them with the incorrect political structure), and generally no evidence of research... it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

Native Americans have already had their culture taken by force, butchered, blended without any regard for context, and have undergone centuries of forced assimilation. People are already actively trying to destroy Native American culture and this is continuing along that path by not treating individual cultures with any semblance of dignity. It's simply using them for extra "flavour" when cultures are not toys.

See if what you're doing is even factually accurate. As evidenced by what I discovered, it's not. Do your research before attempting to write a different ethnicity.
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Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:03 pm
XxXTheSwordsmanXxX says...



@Rosendorn
If I have offended you in any fashion, I apologize. It was not my intent, nor is it my intent to "butcher" or "degrade" anything in the Native American culture, and I feel the need to address a few points with you.

Do not assume that because I had this idea that I did not do any research. I have in fact done a great deal of research in this area as I, myself, am a quarter Cherokee. And while I do use a great deal of my research on the internet, I get a good portion of my information from Native Americans.

While I applaud your passion in making sure that people get the facts of a story, I would like to point out that this is a fantasy story. It is not meant to copy/recreate/throw together anything from any culture, especially not their political system. But as a fantasy writer I need a basis for my idea. I am not saying that I am going mix and match what I want from the cultures that I have studied. I am attempting to make a new culture of my very own. Just like J.R.R. Tolkien did for the Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits of The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

To address the topic of wolves, I would like to, once again, state that this is a fantasy. It is not meant to be taken literally. And yes there are a few tribes that did have wolves as part of their religion. They are symbols of family.

I would like to say once more that I am not, in any way, trying to "recreate" or "disrespect" any culture with this story. I am attempting to create my own culture, with my own legends, political system and celebrations.

If this response only angers you further, I apologize in advance. But I, in no way meant disrespect, and I have tried very hard to keep that.
  





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Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:46 pm
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Rosendorn says...



Fantasy does not matter. You're still constrained by geography. Even if we take any possible offence out of the equation, environment-wise the groups you have selected make no sense.

Every single part of Native cultures came from the land and what people had to do to survive on it. Cultures come from their environment. As Kyll pointed out, you're taking from cultures that have wildly different environments. Many of the customs the Sioux people established won't work unless they're in a Plains, and many of the customs Wyandot people established won't work unless they're near an extensive system of lakes. This is basic anthropology, here, which you are disregarding.

Fantasy does not mean that you are vague with what you base your world on. See Avatar: The Last Airbender. They took China, Tibet, the Inuit, and South/ Southeast Asia for each of their nations (Earth, air, water, and fire, respectfully) and proceeded to lovingly recreate the cultures to the point they were recognizable as those individual cultures, both on an overreaching level and the variety of the culture. You can see it in their environment (the water tribe lives in the arctic, so of course they're similar to the inuit, meanwhile the air nomads live in the mountains so it's a natural extension of Tibet), and you can see it in their skin. It is everywhere within the fantasy world.

And that's what makes it so good. Because somebody took the time to respect individual cultures. Yes, there is some modification because it is fantasy, but they are still identifiable individual societies. These societies reflect the original values and environment of the culture, good and bad. And because it's so singular focused, they had cultures that naturally interacted blending together. "Southeast Asia" looks very broad until you know the history of the area, at which point you see just how much the cultures already borrowed from each other. It was not a forced mix of cultures that never or only distantly interacted.

Praise for your work comes with honouring individual societies. Avatar: The Last Airbender would not be as good as it was had the writers simply gone "eh this is vaguely Asian-ish." Instead, they went "Tibet developed in this way from this environment, so we're going to have air nomads in this environment develop about the same way, but modify it to reflect how they can manipulate an element." They did it four times with each nation.

They honoured the individual cultures while still making it their own. It is very much humanly possible to steep something as genuinely part of one culture, as recognizably one culture, while making something new for fantasy.

I find it interesting you mention Tolkien as somebody who "created something new" when, in fact, his primary (and basically only) source was Norse mythology. You're comparing your blending with somebody who was an absolute puritan in using a single mythology. And, again, that's what makes Lord of the Rings so good. There was so much detail pulled from both common and obscure sources in a single culture with the only real modification being "what if there's magic."

You don't need to blend cultures to make something of your own in a fantasy world. As obvious from my examples, taking a single culture or a single geographic area that has had multiple cultures and modifying it only along the lines of "here's how magic made it different" creates extremely strong, detailed works that receive praise for generations.

Build culture from the environment and see what society fits best once you've figured out your geography. Your work will be better and more successful as a result, for multiple reasons:

1- You will have to learn less cultures. It is always easier to pick one source and research it in depth, because proper blending require knowing multiple cultures at an extremely deep level in order to figure out how they are compatible. Even if you only take a geographic area, you still have a basis for how the existing cultures there modified over time as they conquered each other and moved around.

2- You will be able to create something more realistic. Culture is impossible to create in full by yourself, and if you don't pull from a really strong base (ie- more in reality than in your own imagination), then there will be really obvious gaps. It will feel thin, under-developed, and generally hollow. If you pull from a real world culture, then you can go "hey, this little custom will add a bunch of realism and make the society seem more alive" in ways your own imagination never could.

3- More people will praise your work. People who are part of that culture will go "Hey, this is us" and recommend it to everyone they know. You expand your audience to people who know what they are talking about and people who are desperately craving seeing themselves or a relative of themselves in fiction.

There is seriously no downside to only picking a single culture or geographic area to base your fantasy off of. You get a rich tapestry of sub cultures that existed within the overreaching cultures, you do less mental work so you can spend more time writing, and more people will resonate with your work because it's simply better constructed.

Also, side note. I have blood and adoption ties to the Kanien'kehá:ka, Mi'kmac, and Wyandot peoples. So you just got more information from a Native American.
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Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:52 pm
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StellaThomas says...



Hey @XxXTheSwordsmanXxX! Stella here!

Being European, I can't help much with the cultural research you're doing for your novel, but I'm hoping I can help with a little conceptual advice. Unlike a couple of other commenters, I don't really see an enormous issue with mixing cultures - the fantasy world we so typically imagine is really just a mishmash of European cultures - a bit of France, a bit of Germany, a bit of Russia, you name it, it's all in the melting pot. I think that borrowing from different cultures to make your own is in general fine as long as you follow the in-universe rule that it is consistent. For instance, you can't have one belief totally contrasting another, or a practice that goes against religion, or a ritual that doesn't quite seem to fit into the bigger picture. Make sense?

In terms of that, one of the things that struck me as weird was that this woman's outcast status is because her conception was rape when, well, the whole festival sounds a bit like that to me. It would make more sense if she were conceived in a relationship that began outside of the ritual or something, because considering that that's how they make up couples, rape doesn't seem like it would be that big a taboo. Maybe it is, and I'm misunderstanding. But that strikes me as discordant within your canon. You mentioned that anything outside of the ritual is considered wrong, so maybe that's what I would go with instead.

Of course, it's very hard to prove anything about someone's conception, so that's something else to think about.

Other than that, I guess what you need is a plot! An idea is no good unless you have a plot to work into it. And I'm not seeing much of one here. That's the problem and probably the reason you're a bit hesitant to embark on telling this story. I think the questions you need to ask yourself are: a) what story am I telling and b) how do the plot and the setting feed into one another?
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Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:30 pm
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Vervain says...



One quick thing: It's a bit fallacious to say that European cultural borrowing is the same as American cultural borrowing. In Europe, a lot of cultures mixed and blended very naturally, as a result of having a lot of nations in close quarters who often traded travelers, royal and noble children, and inventors who brought with them their traditions and culture.

The distance from Paris to Moscow is 600 miles—almost 1000 kilometers—less than the distance from El Paso, TX, to New York City, NY. The distance involved in this question is more immense than the distance involved in European cultural borrowing, especially considering the cultural distance between Native tribes in the Americas.

While there was limited trade and interaction between Native tribes, they were hardly as culturally blended as Europe due to a few factors, one being the difficulty of traversing the many different biomes contained within the continent of North America. Desert and plains tribes, for instance, would not be able to survive efficiently with their desert/plains methods in a mountain landscape, swamp, or lake land.
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PenguinAttack says...



I think what @StellaThomas was saying is that a great many fairytales and other fantasy genre items that western culture is used to is a mixture of European influences without much regard to where in Europe particular influences come from.

Fantasy is a big thing in my life, I've been reading adult fantasy books since I was about 10 and I love it. Personally, I dislike when it's really obvious what culture was used to define cultural norms in a fantasy novel. I like when I can't guess if the place is Japan, Germany, Brazil or Tonga.

From what I understand of your posts, Swordsman, you're looking toward Native American people for a vast array of concepts that you may use as part of your novel. You're not trying to introduce a culture exactly like that of one which already exists. Instead you want to use things you love or like, or maybe even hate, about a collection of cultures and combine them. That's a lot of what fantasy novels are about and I'm into it. Grab the bits you like and use them. I don't think it's disrespectful in that you're not trying to recreate a culture, and you're not trying to misrepresent a people or a place.

You've been bombarded with a lot of "you have to use this culture correctly, respectfully, and probably not at all" and I get that, but you're not using the culture, you're using a concept. Wolves exist all over the place and there are stories all over about them. Go for it as far as I'm concerned. You're not writing about Native American people, you're writing about tribe-based wolf people.
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Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:49 pm
Kale says...



@StellaThomas nailed it with how your explanation still doesn't bridge the gap between how your general audience will view rape versus how the in-book culture views rape.

As for the culture itself, I can see what you're trying to do, but you also have to realize that Native American peoples have a long history of being generalized, with choice pieces of disparate cultures being used wholesale as "inspiration". How you mentioned that your tribe even plays lacrosse indicates that this is the route you're taking, whether you intended to or not.

I'm going to have to disagree with @PenguinAttack about European fantasy not caring where in Europe it pulls from. I've been reading fantasy for just as long, and by far, most fantasy is set in British, French, or German analogues, sometimes with a dash of Scandinavia tossed in for flavoring. In contrast, Eastern Europe and the southern regions are completely absent (something which personally annoys me because I've been working on a fantasy set in those regions and comparable works and cultural information is incredibly hard to find) as are Spain and Portugal.

For some examples of more region-specific European fantasy, I strongly recommend reading the works of Guy Gavriel Kay. He's particularly noted for the strength of his worlds and cultures, as well as the authenticity of their interactions. At the very least, his works will give you an idea of how to respectfully mesh cultures together into a believable fantasy setting. He also incorporates a lot of the lesser used regions and cultures into his works.

For some actual Scandinavian fantasy, I highly recommend A Redtail's Dream. It's a beautiful comic, and it is very much steeped in the lore of Scandinavia. I can't link right now since I'm on my phone, but the artist currently is working on another comic also set in Scandinavia. It's post-apocalyptic and a lot of fun, and I also recommend it since it also shows a lot of cultural influences that you don't typically see in fiction.

I will also say that borrowing influences from other living cultures needs to be done carefully. It's incredibly painful to see aspects of your own culture torn from what gives it meaning and used as a marker for a character or other culture being different, if not outright alien and incomprehensible (which happens a lot in sci-fi as well I've noticed).

The aspects you borrow need to make sense in setting of your story. There need to be reasons why those aspects exist together in a single culture as a coherent culture, and in that environment.

You can't just take a piece and drop it in, maybe change the name if you're feeling particularly clever, and call that inspiration. It's not. It's just lazy, and that laziness is incredibly disrespectful to the culture you took the piece from.

Inspiration involves studying the cultures you're borrowing from, understanding the customs and beliefs and where they came from, and then incorporating something similar into your own story's culture in a way that makes sense to that new culture. There will be similarities, yes, but there will also be differences, and those differences are the key to tying the pieces of inspiration together into a coherent whole.

Your core idea is the Great Hunt. I recommend looking for cultures that had similar courting rituals (they do exist) and also paying more attention to wolf courtship (which is nothing like the Great Hunt). Work from there and take note of the commonalities between these cultures because it will help you figure out the whys of the culture and that particular courtship ritual.
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:49 am
XxXTheSwordsmanXxX says...



I would like to clear the air here. It seems that a lot of people are assuming that I haven't done research in Native American culture or the diversities there are between individual tribes. That I am just lumping them all under a singlular umbrella term. I'm not. I have done a great deal of study into each of the cultures that I have mentioned as to find the reasons for why and how they made decisions. I have delved deep into their individual beliefs and religions. Why one tribe was nomadic while another was stationary due to the land, amount of game in the area, and the protection it allowed. As such I have also studied a great deal into the mannerisms and courtship of wolves to try and create a society that is both wolf and Native American in culture.

I realise that the idea of the great hunt is not part of Native American culture or wolf courtship and I also realize that this entire concept needs to be handled delicately. I also realize that the idea of rape in this culture will have to be defined in better terms, as several of you have mentioned, and I will make sure to do that when/if I rewrite this story. I am just concerned that when I brought up this thought, I had a lot of people assuming that I am just writing off of stereotypes and rumors instead of doing research and gathering viable information.

This entire thread has turned into a political debates instead of the merits of the idea, or the lack there of. I apologize to anyone that I have offended and would hope that this thread is not something that I regret putting out there for an opinion, as I feel it is at the moment.
  





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Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:20 am
Kale says...



The reason why these assumptions came into play is because your posts didn't show that you had done the research, mainly through the contractions between your stated sources and your stated plans. You've also stated that you have done the research, but without explaining why you chose to hold to the contradictions in favor of revising them to be more consistent with your sources.

More often than not, contradictions of this sort are the result of a lack of research, and the latter shows a disregard for it.

I'm not saying that you haven't done the research or that you haven't been careful with how you've incorporated your sources of inspiration, but you have done a poor job of explaining how you've done so, and it's very difficult to evaluate an idea and give relevant feedback without knowing the justifications for it, and so the only things we have to work with are what you state and what we assume based on past experiences.

If you could explain to us how you reconciled the many differences we see between your sources of inspiration and where you ended up, we won't have to make assumptions and can give you more helpful opinions.
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:22 am
XxXTheSwordsmanXxX says...



@Kyllorac
While I see your point, I have to say that assuming such things makes it seem to people that already having trouble with whether they want to write a story or not, that the entire concept is worthless and would throughout what might be a good story.

Perhaps me giving an entire outlook of the culture would be the best for this idea.

This culture is a stationary one, similar to the Cheyenne, Cherokee, and Navajos, living in huts made from logs and grass from the forest. Though the genders are very much equal, the males are hunters and will travel deep into the forest for game and help with hard labor at the village while the females farmed, raised children, and make the main decisions within a family.

They have a chief, though he is called Alpha, who is in charge of the defense of the village, the hunters, and warfare. The Alpha's mate is the spiritual leader of the tribe, gaining insight by her connection to The Goddess - the moon. Any decisions that would effect the entire village is decided by a council, composed of males and females, where they will debate and come to an agreement of a course of action.

They have medicine men and women, though women are seen as better healers as they are said to be able to heal the soul as well as the body.

Their main belief comes from being balanced with the earth around them. Taking only what they need and using everything from a hunt or harvest.

Mates are a permanent pairing, similar to the bonding of regular wolves. Unless one of the pair dies, they will not mate with any other male or they may be ostracized by the tribe.

Courtship beings a few weeks before the Great Hunt, where the available males will begin courting with the available females, and vice versa, in search of one that they feel would be a good mate for them. A day before the Hunt, the females leave the village to prepare, which consists of grooming, painting designs into their fur, and learning of what the night will be like from mated females as well as the Alpha Female. On the night of the Great Hunt the females will be sent into the forest at sunset and the Males will be sent to hunt an hour after, once they have been given a herb that enhances their sense of smell. They then find and follow the scent that they desire and find their female. They believe that The Goddess has a hand in the final pairing of the mates and those that are together at sunrise are proclaimed mated pairs.

Any mating taking place outside of these mated pairs are severely looked down upon to the point that those that have mated outside the pairs can be exiled or seen as an outsider of the tribe and any offspring from the mating will suffer the same fate.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion and issues that have been circling this thread.
  








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