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Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:14 pm
UntamedHeart173 says...



Recently, I've added a brother for Peter Pan in Neverland's Curse. His name is Wyatt and he's one of the villains in the novel. (He won't stay that way, obviously. He'll be recruited to the side of the good guys at the end of book one.) My question for you guys is this: do you think I should keep him as a villain throughout the whole story? Or should I recruit him for the good guys as I have planned. Normally, I could answer this question myself but I'm sorta caught between the two storylines in this one.

The storyline if he stays a villain is simple. He and Peter fight and, at the very end of book one, he kills Peter. Well, Peter's not really dead but the readers don't know that. I like this a lot...but I also like the second storyline.

The storyline if he is de-villainized is also kinda simple. He helps Peter to capture Wendy and is almost killed by her in the process. In this case, Peter would have a greater motivation to kill Wendy. (She'll of course escape, giving us a reason for book two.)

So what would you guys do in my place? I really am quite caught between the two storylines.

Colly <3
Dean: Of course, the most troubling question is why do these people assume we're gay?

Sam: Well, you are kind of butch. They probably think you're overcompensating.
  





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Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:42 pm
TigersMoon says...



Well, lets look at what can come from both story lines.
In the first one, Wyatt's character is bland, him just being a villain that Peter needs to defeat. If you choose this story line there are two major points you need to work on: One, making Wyatt three-dimensional, two, finding out where you'll go from having Peter be "killed" by him and what will happen to Wyatt afterwords.

In the second one, Wyatt gets more character development, which is good. For this you need to figure out why Wyatt changes sides, how Wendy escapes, and how to add to the story line so Wendy's capture then escape doesn't leave you at square one again (the readers will feel cheated into reading this book).

For both Wyatt has to have a convincing motive for trying to kill Peter/be a villain.

Hope I helped!
Three ghosts in the lighthouse
  





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Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:48 pm
UntamedHeart173 says...



Thank you! :) You definitely helped me decide. (He's going to change sides.) His motivation for hating Peter is that Peter left him behind when he created Neverland. (Wyatt had a wife and son and Peter didn't want to take him from them.) Thanks for your comment, what you said makes a lot of sense.
Dean: Of course, the most troubling question is why do these people assume we're gay?

Sam: Well, you are kind of butch. They probably think you're overcompensating.
  





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Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:42 am
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Rosendorn says...



If you want to see the turned-to-good-guys plot done well, check out Avatar: The Last Airbender. Zuko goes through almost the identical mechanics, where he goes from an antagonist (which is not the same as a villain. They often overlap, but they don't always) to part of the core group of protagonists.

Also, I question why you call the plot "simple". Whenever you have strong emotions involved and people on two opposite sides, there is a lot of complex motive involved. People don't like reexamining who they are and why they're doing what they're doing, unless they have a strong reason to.

If you're going to do things like rehabilitate an antagonist, you had better build that character to be rehabilitated. You have to give them the weaknesses, flaws, and personality traits that will lead to them going through a fairly intensive character arc of "now a trustworthy member of the group". You also have to build your protagonist as somebody who would trust them, which means limiting the amount they are an antagonist. You could, in theory, give them a strong enough story or make the protagonist extremely forgiving, but the saying "cool motive, still murder" comes to mind. Some antagonists are irredeemable, and if you're banking on the antagonist becoming a good person, you kinda have to avoid those. If you do use something like that, you have to handle it very carefully (Scar from Fullmetal Alchemist would be a good example).

I'm also questioning why you're grabbing the "evil twin" trope. What made the twin evil? Why were they separated? Is he genuinely evil or is he more an anti-villain type, who has a good goal but a bad motive? Evil twin/sibling/family member is one of the more common tropes in existence, and it'll probably turn at least a few readers off.

This leads to how it's equally not similar to have him stay evil. You have to figure out what happened to turn him against his own brother that much. I'm not saying twins always like each other and they share this special bond (that's a whole other set of cliches), but I am saying there has to be a pretty big difference of opinion and/or upbringing to lead to one side killing the other. You can't just grab for a stock villain with no development when dealing with family members and expect it to work. If you pick this storyline, you'll have to build the character to stay a villain, and he will be much different than the built-to-be-rehabilitated character.

This isn't even getting into how you'll have to build the protagonist to accept either the fact they have a twin that's evil, or accept that they started off evil and changed sides. Not everyone is forgiving or trusting, and depending on who Peter is as a person then he might not accept his brother— ever. This is in part controlling the villainy and in part just letting the characters be their own person who don't always do things the way you want the plot to happen, because it does not make sense for their characterization.

You also have to create situations throughout the backstory and plot that keep testing the characters, forcing them to one side or the other. To grab Zuko as an example, he took multiple seasons to grow, change, and develop from antagonist to protagonist. He had both internal factors and external factors pushing him to become a good guy, and his whole situation is such that he kept making choices (some small, some large), that led him to eventually switching sides. Had he not gotten that much development (he'd have whole episodes dedicated to just his arc), then the change wouldn't have been believable at all. On top of that, he had even more tests with the protagonists where he kept choosing their side, which is how he earned their trust (it was far from instant).

No matter what you do with this particular setup, you'll have a bucketload of work to do. Neither of these plots are simple, and both require you to really develop all sides involved (including mentor figures, friends, parents, siblings, and the characters themselves) in order to pull it off.
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





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Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:17 pm
UntamedHeart173 says...



@Rosendorn:
Thank you for that! You made me think about it and decide just a little differently. Instead of him being either a villain or a villain turned hero, he's a hero. Wendy is using Mind Magick against him. She's controlling him. I figured it would be a good way to keep on the side of the bad guys for a while but also for Peter to get him back. He's never hated his brother. Wendy is just forcing him to act like he does. :)
Dean: Of course, the most troubling question is why do these people assume we're gay?

Sam: Well, you are kind of butch. They probably think you're overcompensating.
  





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Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:14 am
Rosendorn says...



That is a fair chunk simpler to do, but you'll still have to account for:

- Why him under mind magic (and not, say, Peter or both brothers)
- Whether or not he remembers anything from when he was on it
- Who he thinks he is when magicked
- What it takes to get him out of it
- How Peter reacts

I'm particularly curious to the answer to the first. For me, it's ineffective to only place one twin to your side. If you're an antagonist trying to win, and you have the ability to manipulate the protagonists, you'll want to knock the hero out of commission. You'll also want to knock out as many as you can. Until you figure out the villain motive for this, it'll come across as a trick to generate emotional conflict instead of something well thought out and logical.
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





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Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:26 pm
UntamedHeart173 says...



@Rosendorn:

- Wyatt's mind is weaker than Peter's. Wendy has tried using Mind Magick on Peter and couldn't. He's the leader of Neverland in a sense. He's strong. Wyatt, however, isn't.
- Wyatt is mentally aware of everything going on while he's under Mind Magick. He just doesn't have the energy to fight against it.
- He knows who he is.
- Wyatt has to fight it on his own. Peter is a big help because he sends his magick to his brother, aiding him in fighting against Wendy.
- Peter is distraught and angry. He wants his brother back and he wants Wendy gone for good.

Thanks!
Dean: Of course, the most troubling question is why do these people assume we're gay?

Sam: Well, you are kind of butch. They probably think you're overcompensating.
  








There’s always a story. It’s all stories, really. The sun coming up every day is a story. Everything’s got a story in it. Change the story, change the world.
— Terry Pratchett