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Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:43 am
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Noaven says...



Hey everyone!

So I'm Noaven and I saw Deanie do this open prewriting post for a novel and I wanted to see what feedback I'd get from the ideas I've gathered so far for my own novel. This would be my first novel and I'd appreciate some constructive criticism about it! Honestly I feel it may be a bit all over the place and there are several things that I'm just all around iffy about.

As for the story itself the general idea goes like this:

It is a romance adventure in which long time best friends get trapped in a vintage video game. During their time in this game they are faced with several blasts from their past and are constantly threatened by bugs (errors/glitches in the game) as well as anomalies that happened to be shaped like spiders, beetles, etc. These events will lead the main characters to both confront truths about themselves as well as question their feelings for each other. In order to confront the creature that is the name sake of the game (World Weaver) they will need to be firm in their feelings because they only get one shot and have no room for doubt in each other or themselves.

There's a bit more to it that i'll be adding on the next post, but this covers the major focus of the novel! Next post is gonna go into detail about what does what/ what some of the more vague/made up stuff is exactly, as well as go over the main characters.
  





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Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:50 am
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Noaven says...



To start with I want to explain the title World Weaver. It is named after a spider that appears in my novel. It is not a real spider which will become more apparent as I explain what it does in the story. This World Weaver is a highly intelligent trapdoor spider. The vintage video game acts as the disguised door that pulls the prey in. Once inside the video game the spider then preys upon the life force of it's victims as well as incorporates said victims into the game as npcs to trick more victims into succumbing to the game. In the unlikely case that victims escape, the amount of life force drained depends on the amount of time spent in the game. Once all of a victims life force is drained the person simply disappears from the game.

The anomalies that show up in the game are bug shaped flashes of light that move rather slow and aim simply to apprehend victims that are fighting against the game. If apprehended, victims will be transported to a sort of limbo where they will steadily be forced to succumb and then become a npc for the game.

The main characters are:
- Jayce Reed
+ Male
+ Blonde hair
+ Blue eyes (Contacts and occasionally glasses)
+ 6' 2" medium build
+ Geeky, Patient, Quiet, Sense of humor, Loyal to those he deems close, Intelligent (Strategy)
+ loves collecting old video games for older consoles
+ Crush on Skylar despite trouble with trying a relationship in the past
+ From a well off family but doesn't care for the money

- Skylar Ward
+ Black hair with red tips
+ Hazel eyes
+ 5' 6" smaller build
+ Hot headed, Cold, Fierce anger, Tough, Independent, Lacks trust in others, gullible, Strong in her beliefs and morals
+ loves gaming especially FPS
+ vegitarian
+ Mother died giving birth to her and father was abusive
+ Lives with Jayce's family after he risked his life to get her away from her fathers abuse
+ Has a strange reaction to ice cream almost like getting drunk or having a serious sugar rush

A couple ideas for plot that I'm iffy about including:

Jayce and Skylar are both just graduating from high school around the time the story takes place. Skylar's boy friend at the time happened to be a high school jock who was just dating her to fill until after high school when he would dump her for a older girl he happened to be dating in secret.
(If above is included then I'm iffy about what follows as well)

Skylar returns home ahead of Jayce and after having a talk with his mother she is given a full carton of black cherry ice cream (Jayce's favorite) to help cheer her up. When Jayce returns he finds her in his room singing karaoke enthusiastically while dancing in nothing but a long T-shirt and panties. He doesn't react much but instead gets dragged into the karaoke. A short bit later Jayce's older sister joins them and once Skylar hits the sugar crash they end up on Jayce's couch cuddled together and watching movies. (Things get started with the vintage game shortly after this)

An idea I kind of like for their past is Skylar's father being very abusive and alcoholic. Following his wife's death in order for Skylar to be born, he later loses his job and starts having trouble keeping up with bills and taking care of Skylar. He develops a drinking problem that makes him a lot more aggressive. She ends up becoming a target for him to take things out on. This develops around the beginning of middle school for Skylar. Jayce takes notice fairly quickly and even discovers that she lives nearby. Close enough they can communicate with flash lights after learning basic Morse code from a book in the library. Jayce tries to get adult help but finds that with little proof they don't believe him. Somehow this continues for two years during which Jayce takes Aikido in the hopes of being able to confront Skylar's father. After hearing from her about a hand gun her father keeps for defense purposes Jayce uses the excuse of vintage video game collecting in order to borrow enough money over time to get a Kevlar vest before confronting her father with nearly bad results. In the end the truth is revealed and Skylar moves in with Jayce's family after her father was dubbed unfit to care for a child. (pretty loose idea I want to use for a big part of the past that gets dug up while they are stuck in the video game)

There's still a lot of details I can firm up in this but here's a start to the ideas I have. I just wanted to get them out there both for feedback and so I don't forget them as I brainstorm and such.
  





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Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:27 am
Rosendorn says...



So. The way I tend to give constrictive criticism is to point out flaws in logic, weak ideas, and places to be improved.

Such as the fact you've got a maniac pixie dream girl with a Good Guy everydude romance plot with so many logic flaws and saviour tropes that the story is something I've seen twenty times.

Let's define some terms!

Maniac Pixie Dream Girl is the full of energy, rebellious, spark of energy girl whose sole purpose is to give an every day dude deeper meaning to his life. She usually has an unusual or nature related name. Bonus points if she has a tragic backstory that exists for the guy to "save" her from, because he's such a nice guy that of course he'll repay her giving his life meaning by being her knight in shining armour.

Let's go into what makes me call Skylar one.

Marital death in childbirth is actually extremely rare. If Skylar is around 17 or 18 in modern day (I'm going to go with 2014 since that was the last graduating class for high school), then the maternal mortality rate would be between 8 to 11 per 100,000 births in the US. It's not completely implausible, but the way it is right now (especially with the abusive dad) it just sounds like the tragic backstory exists to make her sympathetic. Something to say "poor her she's such a lost soul" instead of actually treating her like a character who's got a relationship with her past; trauma shapes people, impacts them, and people have a relationship with their abusive past. This isn't always "wants to run and hide away from it"; sometimes it's owning it, sometimes it's hating it, sometimes it's developing certain attitudes towards people. Some abuse victims develop PTSD. Others don't. I can't tell what Skylar developed because you haven't tied anything about her personality directly to the abuse. You've apparently only used the abuse for a vague "distrusts others" (which can take dozens of different forms, some of which cancel out gullibility, some of which don't) and as a method to get her into his house.

There's also the unusual hair, the sugar rush rendering her adorable drunk, and the general sense that Skylar is not a person, but instead a set of traits that exist to make her a sympathetic reward for the male hero. She reads more like the idea of a person than an actual person.

Which leads me to Good Guy everydude.

I capitalized "good guy" for a reason. This character is a specific type of male main character who has a bunch of privilege but doesn't have any of the nasty biases that come from it, who's always a sympathetic ear for friends (especially if they're women), and who's a little shy, a little awkward, and generally tailored to be The Perfect Guy.

It doesn't work that way.

People who have money will always show it, until they don't have money any more, and even then, they'll still have it come up. If you want an example of this, read Raven Boys by Maggie Stiefvater. She has the main character be a generally nice guy, born into old money, who wants to help people— and he keeps offending those from lower classes because he plain old does not understand how anybody who doesn't have money relates to money. Even if you don't particularly care for money, the fact you have it will show in your mannerisms. You will offer things that will flat out offend (or wrack with guilt) people who don't have money without thinking. The fact you don't care about it actually shows just how much you have in the first place: when you don't have enough money, then you basically have to think about it. Not thinking about money is a privilege of the rich.

He's also basically acting as a foil for the past abuse, the direct antithesis of her father and he's the type of guy she'd never argue with or get hurt by. Here's the issue with that, though: disagreements are a natural part of friendship and therefore relationships. If you're not disagreeing, then you're either carbon copies of each other (which is boring) or you're hiding parts of yourself to avoid fights (which is unhealthy and the mark of a relationship doomed to the shallow waters).

You also seem so focused on the "good guy" plot (I keep that in quotes because even a shy, quiet, patient, unassuming guy can be a nasty abuser) that nothing really goes wrong within your summary. They face trials, but they come out closer. They're at risk of dying, but the threat's never realized. Their life force is being drained, but they keep getting stronger. In order for the plot to be good, you have to get messy. You have to make the threats real. You have to let things get worse. You have to accept that maybe these two characters aren't meant for each other and as you write you discover that they're better off friends, or even better off not knowing each other.

There's no humanity here. There's no sense of tension here. You have a classic damaged girl meets dreamboat guy and her life falls into place (after he drags her off on an adventure that really is all about him) plot. This is nearly every single summary I read in the romance genre, male viewpoint character or female viewpoint character. She is an object to be desired, he desires her and gets her.

Get some humanity in here and mess up the plot. Figure out how everything impacts everything else. Add in more characters who are already key players, such as their parents and other people they see all the time (will her dad go after her? Do his parents approve? Are the police involved? What about their circle of friends? Teachers? These two have lives outside of each other but you don't act like it, seeing as there's no talk of anything but them). It's no fun if there are only two people who don't have any other people to interact with. It's also no fun if the threats aren't real threats and instead just act as vague "oh this was wrong in the past" or "this will be wrong... eventually" mental check off points.

There's potential here, but it needs to be developed quite a bit more before that potential is realized.
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





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Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:22 pm
LadySpark says...



I'm gonna build on what Rosey said.

What I really liked about your plot is the vintage video game thing. It's quite original, I don't think I've ever seen it before, and it's a really cool idea.
However, you're overshadowing it with this half baked, cliche, trope filled, misogynistic romance plot.
Since Rosey mostly focused on the general things, I'm going to pick out the stuff in your plot that makes it exactly what I said above.

Let's start with them being long time best friends, and how as soon as she breaks up with her jock boyfriend, they realize their feelings for each other. AKA every best friends fall in love story ever. Now I am in no way saying that the answer to this should be to make him longing from afar, and the reason he did all this stuff with her father because he loved her--because that itself can turn very abusive very fast. "Oh I did this because I love you, so you MUST love me back". And it's also very very cliche. You need to figure out a way for them to fall in love without it seeming like it's just convenient for the plot and for the male character.

Secondly, let's talk a bit about PTSD. Now, I am in noooo way an expert on this, so I'm going to focus mainly on the only way this jock relationship would work, and if this was the reason--why her relationship with Jayce would not. You know the Perks of Being a Wallflower quote "we accept the love with think we deserve"? That can be very true in people who suffer from PTSD when linked to abusive relationships. This is where the jock thing would make sense. He's obviously abusive and cares little for her, but since that's all she can remember coming from her dad-- well she accepts it 'cause she thinks that's how love is.
In waltzes the nice guy and by some magic he's in love with her and she's definitely going to have some problems with him trying to love her, because she doesn't think that's how love works.

The other end of the coin is that instead of accepting the love, she pushes it away because love is frightening. To some extent, if the jock boyfriend ignores her mostly, it might work. But that still wouldn't change the fact that she would have problems falling in love with this good guy, no matter what the reason.
And it's very very likely that she will have PTSD from all those years of abuse, so I suggest you research it thoroughly.

Next point.
When Jayce returns he finds her in his room singing karaoke enthusiastically while dancing in nothing but a long T-shirt and panties.

Oh come on. This is just a ploy to make her look sexually attractive in front of her now love interest. She literally just broke up with her boyfriend. If she is upset, she's not going to be dancing around in a t-shirt and underwear. She's going to look remarkably unattractive in fact. Especially if she's in tears. No one cries pretty. No one.

Jayce uses the excuse of vintage video game collecting in order to borrow enough money over time to get a Kevlar vest before confronting her father with nearly bad results.

So you're telling me a 14/15 (maybe even younger) year old kid, buys a Kevlar vest and confronts a much larger, scarier man? By himself?
Ha.
Ha.
Ha.
No matter how much he loves Skylar, the only way they're gonna win, or he's going to be brave enough to actually take on her dad. What's he trying to achieve? What exactly is going to be gained by this little adventure? No matter what, the authorities are the ones who have to believe this abuse.

Now, on this point, I'm not sure what the actual rules are, because I am not familiar with it--but I would research what happens once a teenager is taken out of the home, how long it takes etc. If the authorities are involved, it could take months--and I'm pretty sure she'd be put into the foster care system and shipped off somewhere until she turns eighteen, not conveniently sent to her best friends house. If she just leaves her dad on her own accord, the best friend thing might be believable, but Jayce's parents would still probably want to involve the authorities. Abusive parents are messy. Why have one? It doesn't really add conflict to your story. Like Rosey said, it's just a ploy to make your character look sympathetic. But we're not buying it.
hush, my sweet
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Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:07 pm
Noaven says...



It sounds weird putting it this way, but this was about what I expected. It's not that I knew there were these specific flaws in my ideas. I just knew there was going to be a lot of issues with what I wanted to do. I even almost feel kind of bad for wanting it this way, because after hearing your feedback it does sound like bad writing. Overall this just proves I've got a long way to go. I haven't read up on creative writing or taking any courses. My understanding of what actually goes into a story is quite limited and it shows. It's not just ideas that come together in a neat little bundle, it's a actual art of forming the good and the bad into something desirable for the readers. With that in mind I believe I have a lot of reading to do. Both of you were a tremendous help with your insight. It did feel a tad harsh but it was nothing more than what the writing I presented deserved. I was worried it would put me off, but I honestly feel that I want to improve now. Thank you both for taking time to respond! I think I know what I need to do now. Once I've done some proper research I'll see about posting a revised version of my idea. If you would provide some constructive criticism on that when the time comes that would be amazing but if you don't want to or don't have time to I understand as well. Either way thank you again for the help!
I guess you could say I was born a traveler..but that's not entirely accurate..I was just born traveling. Never had a home in the physical sense..don't plan to anytime soon.
  





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Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:26 pm
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Rosendorn says...



Honestly you don't really need courses. They're nice, but you don't need them. The way I got most of my writing experience that actually made my writing better was getting reviews that directly tied the theory of what "good writing" is supposed to be to my actual practice of what bad writing was. You can know a bunch theory but not know how to apply it. My writing marginally improved with theory and rewriting, but it drastically improved when I got reviews and finished a draft.

Just something to think about.

And to add on about PTSD+ abuse:

You can actually get one of two types of PTSD from having parental abuse and living with a physically controlling person. There is regular PTSD, but there is also this thing known as CPTSD, which stands for complex post traumatic stress disorder. This often comes up in reply to a long term traumatic event wherein your abuser controlled your environment. This results in a slightly different symptoms profile than regular PTSD, namely the victim feels a sense of loss for who they could've been.

Also, PTSD is a veritable jigsaw puzzle of symptoms that is not limited to "flashbacks" and "nightmares". Take a look at the DSM 5 criteria to see just how many "must have at least 2" and the list is 6 items long. Some people have the minimum, some people can have all symptoms. The severity of their reactions can also vary from "feeling stressed and unpleasant" to "automatic, unstoppable cowering". One story I heard had a war veteran go from sound asleep to running out of the house to direct civilians at the sound of a truck discharge. CPTSD is debated, but wikipedia is a good start.

You also have to keep in mind PTSD manifests itself in multiple different formats depending on where the character is and how they cope with it. Somebody could have three "states", so to speak, where they have "abuser is present", "trigger is present", and "relaxed" personalities— and I do mean personalities. Some people have an edge to them all the time, others do have relaxed states. It really all depends on personality of the person getting abused.

Plus, PTSD manifests itself differently in different age brackets. Teenagers tend to get lumped in with "adult", but not always. It depends on if you're closer on the young teenager side or older teenager side. Coping mechanisms depend on what's available, with everything from drugs and alcohol to church to fandoms.

It's a complicated thing. When it comes to PTSD done very well, take a look at Fullmetal Alchemist. Multiple characters have PTSD from different sources and it shows up in a lot of their mannerisms.
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





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Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:55 pm
Noaven says...



The mind is a complex thing and I loved the occasional psychology classes I took through school. I just need to make sure to thoroughly research things if I'm going to try to write about them.
I guess you could say I was born a traveler..but that's not entirely accurate..I was just born traveling. Never had a home in the physical sense..don't plan to anytime soon.
  





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Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:20 pm
LadySpark says...



If you decide that you really just want it to be a simple romance story, you can always take the abusive father out. Like I said before, it's a little tripe of a concept, and really does encourage the whole ManicPixieDreamGirl theme that you have going here, which is something I, at least, would not really want to portray.
Just an option.
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Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:05 pm
Noaven says...



Yeah it was a idea that came out of no where. At the time I felt like it was adding a lot to the story, and it was, but not in a good way.
I guess you could say I was born a traveler..but that's not entirely accurate..I was just born traveling. Never had a home in the physical sense..don't plan to anytime soon.
  





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Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:17 pm
Holysocks says...



I wanted to comment on something you mentioned @Rosendorn, in your first post.

The fact you don't care about it actually shows just how much you have in the first place: when you don't have enough money, then you basically have to think about it. Not thinking about money is a privilege of the rich.


This is true, a lot of rather wealthy people wouldn't have the need to care about money, and so on. Though here's something interesting; you don't have to be rich to not care about money. I've mentioned before in chat, that I don't 'care' about money, and I normally get odd looks and people being like "She must be rich". Well, the truth is, I'm not rich, or wealthy... I don't even really have the style of life most people do... our family cars are old beat-up Toyotas which are rusted to heck from driving through twelve inches of mud. We live in a trailer now, and although we've always had enough to feed ourselves, and keep warm etc., it is still sketchy sometimes whether or not the phone bill will be payable.

Now I'm not trying to be all "woe is me", I'm just trying to say you don't have to be rich to not care about money. This way of thinking was possibly contracted from living out in the boondocks with no power or running water for seventeen years, but none-the-less, people can think like that without being extremely well off. This is also partly due to my plain love for people, and life. I would rather be happy with what I do in life, then have money. Er, but looking back you said 'thinking' about money, rather then 'caring'. Anyway, it's still something to think about.

Back to rich people not caring about money though: I knew this guy that was supposed to get a whole bunch of money when he turned a certain age, and it completely spoiled him. For him, knowing that he had his life paid for, made life less interesting. He lost interest in pursuing the things he loved, he spent money all willy nilly, etc. So that's an interesting prospect though; having a character that's lost interest in finding a career they love due to their gain of wealth.

Also, I just thought to point out that character sheets often are not how the character will turn out hardly at all. I did a character sheet for my MC ( Corbin ) which came across rather ridiculously Flawless Amazing Man, though when I actually wrote from his perspective, he was far from cliché ( at least that's what people said ). Just thought I'd mention that because Skylar may seem quite cliché now, but once more detail is put into the character, I could see her being quite different. However Noaven, I do think the name 'Skylar' is a bit much... it is a lovely name, quite sweet... but it's almost too pretty. :/

That's just my thoughts though.
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Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:10 pm
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Rosendorn says...



It's still a different attitude and mindset between rich and poor, is what I'm saying. Somebody rich won't have the "will the phone bill be paid" underscore in the back of their heads. Somebody who's in a lower class will be more about priorities and knowing something's got to give, something might not happen this month because you can't afford it. Somebody who's in a higher class will have fewer and fewer of those questions, until you eventually hit "enough money for everything you want" (or "which super expensive item will I buy this month?" depending).

I'm not saying everybody in every class has the same worries. I'm just saying that there are tiny little things that end up in the back of your mind that don't exist at higher classes. For somebody who's middle class/relatively sheltered, the idea that you might not be able to pay your phone bill is horrifying because that's one of the "always paid for" bills in their mind.

Recently I had a conversation with a friend where he educated me on the value of $60. Depending on your class, this will either be "a lot of money" or "pocket change". The amount of money you have alters your perception of what's a lot of money and what's a little money, so you still have to consider those factors with socioeconomic class.

However, you do have a point, Holy! Not everybody in each class will have the same attitude about money. Somebody filthy rich could care about money a lot and keep wanting more because they feel it's never enough, and somebody who's under poverty line could feel just fine there. This is a very important factor in how you relate to your own socioeconomic class (along with other classes).

I'm just clarifying that class does impact your perception of solid numbers, and what's considered "lots of money" or "pocket change". Your class also impacts what choices you make about what to get on any given basis, and what choices you have to make.

Attitude, as you correctly pointed out, depends on the person. Considering how varied everyone in every class is.
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





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Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:33 pm
Holysocks says...



Oh! I just saw the PTSD posts.

So yeah, PTSD can be caused by lots of things ( I'm just adding on ). My first aid instructor made mention that she had had PTSD from a major first aid experience, but didn't know what it was for the longest time. She was grumpy, sad, and in general not the person she normally was... irritable, etc. In fact they actually give MFRs ( medical first responders ) a number to call if they're in a traumatic first aid situation, and to make sure that they're dealing with it in a healthy way.

Maybe this isn't much help to your story, Noaven, but I'm just helping explain that PTSD can be a lot more common then we might think! ( or trying to help ) ^_^
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