Young Writers Society

First of all, apologies if this is in the wrong forum. Second of all, apologies for typos - I'm on mobile and it's not easy to type, let me tell you :p

Onto the serious issue: I love writing. It's probably the thing I'm most passionate about in life (I value it even above Classics) and I aspire to be published and appreciated when I'm older. However, I'm not very good at writing and it gets to me so much. I've been writing regularly for 8 years now but I'm still mediocre at it. I take critiques and reviews into account, I read countless books, I write every day but I don't seem to get any better!

I don't really know what to do now. Does anyone have any advice or tips or similar experiences? Help us very much appreciated : )

Learn to self edit.

You will never get better if you always wait for other people to tell you what needs improvement in your works. You have to develop the skill to objectively look at your writing and figure out a general idea of what's wrong.

So take an old story, one you've forgotten about. The "forgotten about" is critical, because if you're reading the story while it's still fresh, you'll be reading from memory and won't look at it objectively.

Review it. In detail.

When do you lose interest? When does the dialogue feel stilted? When is there too much or not enough happening? Do the characters remain consistent throughout? Is there too much description? Not enough? Is the plot predictable or do you surprise yourself?

Answer every question without treating your work as precious. Writing is not precious. If you take a look at your stories and aren't willing to be ruthless with them, you won't improve. You need to be willing to write the whole story, realize it's terrible, then rewrite it better. Take all the stuff you learned didn't work in the previous draft and apply it to the new one.

Over. And over. And over again.

Reviewing works on YWS helps this, too— because you need to improve your own reviewing skills in order to learn to self edit. If you can't stand to look at your own work and point out every last flaw, start practicing with others' works. Make notes of what you liked, didn't, and why you hold the opinion you do.

Writing is rewriting. Unless you can develop a self editor on a leash (you can't let your inner editor off leash all the time, otherwise you never write because of perfectionism), you'll struggle to see progress.

Riffing a little off of what Rosey said, once you can sculpt that inner-editor a bit, it is almost immediate that you will pick up on the cues in the media that you take in: fiction, film, TV, games; of the places where there are lulls, where they could have better developed a character, and the thoughts remain with you if you make a habit of it. It creates a cycle of taking in, analyzing, writing, editing, sharing+receiving feedback, editing, and continuing, repeating--not always in a linear fashion.

Example: the first portion of the largest (w-count) project I'm sitting on right now is an absolute trash fire in my opinion, but that was written years ago while my tastes were evolving, and it was a hodgepodge of ideas accepted from others that has yet to be refined. And when my inner editor gets ahold of it, it's going to take large steps forward. Will it be good? NAH. But it'll be solid stone with which I may work.

I'd also caution you to limit, but not bottleneck, your inspirations for the concepts you allow into your story. Not every novel franchise works together, even in the same genre, and their concepts don't all belong in your original piece!

Hope this helps a bit.

I have posted this many times on YWS. It never loses its value.

In addition to what @StellaThomas shared (Maureen Johnson <33):

Ira Glass on Storytelling

Basically, you have great taste. And right now your skill isn't matching up with your taste, because you're still learning and still practicing. This phase where your taste and your skill don't match can last a long time, especially when you're young and your taste is expanding HUGELY all the time because you're at this point in life where you're learning massive amounts of new things every day. If you're doing the whole life thing right, I'm pretty sure this is almost always a problem.

Keep expanding your taste, it's going to make you a better artist. Read different types of stuff. Fiction: genre fiction and literary fiction and novels and short stories. Poems and essays and memoirs. Consume any kind of art you can get your hands on. Listen to music, watch movies and TV, view sculptures and paintings. And keep writing new stuff. Write so much new stuff.

I know some people up above recommended working on your inner editor, which is definitely a fabulous thing to do, but I have never noticed so much improvement in my writing IN GENERAL than by writing pages on pages of new material. Revising one story makes you a lot better at writing THAT story, and a little better at writing stories in general. But writing new and different kinds of stories flexes your muscles in a different kind of way. I don't know how to explain why it does this, but loads of famous, well published authors talk about how they spent years just churning out new material.

Mostly, give yourself time. I hate the phrase "write what you know" because I think anyone can and should write about things they've never experienced. However, there's something about pure life experience that brings life to your writing that I don't know how to get any other way.

Now I'm afraid I'm rambling. Basically, you're on the right track. You care, you seek critique, you want to improve. I know you've been working for a long time, and it doesn't feel like you're getting any better. But I guarantee if you compare something you wrote today to something you wrote years ago, you'll see a difference. Keep stoking that excellent taste of yours, and don't quit writing.

Hope that helps!

The writers above you gave good answers, @regismare, but I'd like to add my own.

If you write, you keep improving. Your work must be surely better than the one 8 years ago. Everyone keeps getting better if they keep at it. Even those famous writers winning awards probably still do.

Revising your work can make you feel more confident. If you're drafting something, you sometimes end up thinking, "Ugh. How horrible." But if you tweaked your work and got something nice, you're certainly improving as a writer! No one's perfect.

Try dipping your toes around in different genres. You might find something you're good at. And in the meantime, as you keep writing, you'll find what's right for you, what's not for you. And you'll be developing your own style.

To sum my words up: Perseverance. That's the key. Remember what Edison said : "Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration."

Don't just stick to writing. Explore and analyze other forms of storytelling media. Like visual media. Like film and anime (hue).

I'm serious. In literature, you have to mentally register and imagine every detail in your head because it tells its stories through words. This style of storytelling kind of shifts away your focus from the more important things, like the entire story itself as a whole. That's why you see a lot of reviewers on this site so invested in the storytelling, but not able to give much thoughts for the entire story itself.

In visual media though, every information is literally on-screen. You don't have to spend brain power imagining it. It's being spoonfed to you. So when watching films, it's easier to give less attention to the storytelling and focus more on the story itself.

So, yeah. Don't miss out on visual media. It's an easier medium to analyze a way to find out how to make your stories more compelling.

And obviously, I'm not gonna forget anime. I'm crazy for it. Analyze it too. You'll get a fresh fruit basket of ideas from the writers of Japan. Admittedly, the Japanese are more batsh** crazy than their Western counterparts. They like to push the boundaries a little more. Ever found a villain that connected to you on an emotional level, or a protagonist that actually was the antagonist in Western literature? I'm pretty sure there ain't a lot. If you can see how they make their stories so good in their own way, then you can incorporate their crazy ideas into your own works.

I'll end this off with some cheesy inspirational stuff. About growth, you always go forward. Maybe a little sideways, but never backwards. That means you're always growing and becoming a better person. Everything you do makes you an even better person than before. If you think your writing is terrible, just remember that you right now you have come farther than you ever have in your entire life.

-vaders

I think all of this is just so relative. What's "bad at writing"? What's "good at writing"? You say you're mediocre at writing no matter what you do, but whom are you comparing yourself to?

If you're comparing your own work to published novels you read and loved — remember that all those novels went through revisions and edits, and their writers most certainly had moments of doubt and considering their own writing mediocre at best. If you want to figure them out, look at the ways they handle characterisation/descriptions/language/rhythm/whatever, and how you handle it yourself. Keep in mind that different doesn't necessarily mean bad, but if you think something you wrote doesn't work and something they wrote does, try to analyse why.

If you're comparing your writing to your writing, and just looking at your own progress, perhaps you're too close to it to see it. Sometimes, we fail to see the things that we got better at because we focus on the faults, and that can easily get discouraging. Working on inner editor advice is a good one, although if your memory is anything like mine, there's no such thing as "a story you forgot" (I can forget about it, but one sentence or a character/place name is all it takes for it all to come back) — putting aside the memories and feelings you connect to the work you're looking at is hard. Possible, but hard.

Thing is, there isn't a formula that changes a "bad writer" to a "good writer". There are rules, yes, that you can try to follow. There are things like reviewing and reading and all that stuff you mentioned, that can certainly help. But ultimately, it's a sum of things, and many of those things are little ones that we often don't even notice as we grow as writers.

Okay now looking back, I think I should have replied this instead of what I did not only for your benefit, but also for the benefit of everyone who was trying to give advice.

What constitutes "bad" and "mediocre" and "not very good" in this context?

Basically my point is please go into greater detail. The words I mentioned above are bad, mediocre and not very good. They're generic.

Reading all the advice we've given so far, they're all scattered conceptually. They do come from the heart, but they don't exactly know what they're dealing with. The only thing they know is it's "bad at writing." The thing I'm afraid of is what we've given aren't really what you're looking for. Help us out as well and tell us exactly what you're looking for. We can't address the very heart of the problem if we don't really know what it is.

Hmmm, well firstly, like others have said, there's ambiguity in your statement. What *is* "mediocre" at writing? Then there's also how much is "writing regularly," how many words do you write a day, how many books is "countless" and also what TYPES of books are you reading, etc.

I'll take your word for it that you are, in fact, "mediocre" at writing, which is different to thinking you are. Dealing with the latter involves figuring out the root of your insecurity and, like CoN said, remembering that all books go through those horrible first drafts, and all authors have those moments of absolute panic and insecurity. They say if you're ever feeling down about your writing, go look up the 1 star reviews for your favorite writers, or amazing classics. A quick glance at some of your recent subs makes me think your writing is just fine, probably above average, but on account of there always being room for improvement regardless of skill level, that's all I'm going to say about that.

It's worth pointing out that reading won't help you as a writer unless you pay attention to writing technique. Usually the best reads to help your *writing* is re-reading things you've already read. But mainly you need to read actively instead of passively. Make notes and underline things if you have to. One person (is it Stephen King? I don't recall) insists you really really ought to take your favorite book and COPY IT OUT BY HAND. Apparently, that's the best way to get into the bones of it and truly understand what the author is doing and how. But whatever way you do it, pay attention to everything you've learned about writing and look for what you agree and disagree with. Reread books, and reread them again. The first time around, you're more likely to be swept up in the story.

Then there are sources for writing education. Writing is one of the arts, and comparing it to art or music makes for a good analogy. It takes practice, education, teachers/lessons, and an understanding of theory. Just like someone who's plonked around on the upright piano in their house for 8 years isn't going to improve very quickly, writing without direction won't get you too far. You have to go out of your way to learn about writing technique and to practice. Things like writing prompts and exercises can be used like the pianist uses scales and arpeggios. And even if you do everything you can, sometimes it just plain takes decades before you're ready to call yourself "good" at it! But some resources...

-> Read books on writing. I've never read "Save the Cat" but I hear it's one of the best. I've also heard "Writing the Breakout Novel" is fantastic. "On Writing" is a classic. "Elements of Style" is commonly mentioned. Try a google search and buy yourself the top three, or the ones that most interest you.

-> Read blogs by authors, editors, and literary agents. Follow your favorites. Janet Reid is a big name as far as blogging goes, and you can learn a lot. I also find that reading query critiques (Evil Editor or Query Shark) actually opened my eyes to common plot and characterization problems.

-> Take writing courses. Either at your local uni, or online. I can't speak highly enough about Brandon Sanderson's lectures--it's a university creative writing course, but someone got permission to record them all and post them for free: http://brandonsanderson.com/2016-sanderson-lectures/

So we've talked about places to learn and study the craft. But ultimately, just like the violinist or the painter, you have to practice it. Write a few hundred thousand words of novels that get thrown out, that sort of thing. I'll say for one thing, if you're interested in novels, you have to write WHOLE novels. Don't get stuck writing beginnings over and over, or patches of scenes and never filling in the gaps. You need to honestly write entire, complete first drafts, and get used to the ups and downs and the problem solving that goes with it. Then there's the whole matter of revising those drafts, like Rosey talked about.

And you know what I think is the biggest help for improving your writing? More than ANYTHING? Critiquing others' writing.

It's commonly touted on writing websites that the value in them is far and away the skills you learn critiquing others, not critiques you receive on your own work. That's where you'll really learn critical analysis. Critical editing skills is what makes writing better; relying on critiques is basically relying on OTHER peoples' editing skills to make the suggestions for you. You want to be at a point where you can look at your own writing and know what to fix.

1. Join writing websites or local in-person writing groups. The more the merrier, if you ask me. As communities tend to go, each one will focus on different aspects of writing or promote different "rules."

2. Make yourself critique consistently. Set a minimum like 2 or 3 every week. Or shoot for a ratio, at least 5:1 or higher (for every 1 critique you receive on your own writing, you critique 5+ other stories). Critique IN DEPTH.

3. AFTER you write your critiques, ALWAYS read all the other critiques. This is where you'll really learn. See what others picked up that you missed, or what you disagree with and think about why. Look at the language people use and the resources they cite, the advice they quote and the techniques they lean on.

Even if you don't do any of the other stuff, this method of critiquing & then analyzing will teach you much, much more about writing than you'll EVER get from reading books or waiting for the reviews to roll in on your own work.

I just want to say that the fact you are able to admit that you are a bad writer makes you at least a decent writer. You seem driven to get better. Just talk to people about your writing. Have discussions. Try new styles and genres. You saying that you are a bad writer is a big part of the neverending journey of becoming a great writer.

Thank you everyone for the help! I didn't expect this to get so many replies!

@Rosendorn thank you for the advice! It's so painful to go back to older writing - I've tried it before and I just cringed away. But I'll try I again for sure, and perhaps get others to look at it to see what they think. I have a file of all my old writing in one of my cupboards and I'll look at that when I next have time.

@Lumi it definitely helps! I've started to do that a bit already, unconsciously, since I've started reviewing on YWS. Whenever I go and watch films, sometimes bits of what the characters do or how the plot goes catches my attention and I think about how I would have done it differently and why. I suppose now I just have to work out how to get the critical thinking into my writing.

@StellaThomas it's the first time I've seen it and it's great! Thanks for posting it; it's really reassuring, actually - and really true now I think bout it. I went through the exact same thing with my art, but I didn't really think my writing would apply for some reason.

@Lauren2010 so much positivity O_O thank you <3 The video was super informative and really comforting, in a weird way. I never really considered it to be a normal thing that everyone goes through. I shall go forth and expand my taste!

@PrincessInk my writing is definitely better than it was eight years ago - it was absolutely terrible back then. It's improved, thankfully, and my tastes and style have evolved. I haven't done a second draft of anything in a while, so that'll probably help a lot, too. Thanks for all of the encouragement!

@outvaders cheesy inspirational stuff is good, haha. I don't really know what the root of the problem is, other than what I've so far posted. My writing is mediocre, and it doesn't seem to get any better - no matter how hard I try (actually, the harder I try the worse it gets) - even though I really want to write well it just never happens. That's the problem. I was looking for advice about accepting that you may never get good at writing and how to enjoy it regardless. Sorry that my descriptions ('good' 'bad' 'mediocre') are vague - I mean that my writing is mediocre. There's nothing particularly special or memorable about it, nor is there in my stories past the technicalities of my writing.

@ChildOfNowhere I suppose I mean mediocre by comparison to everyone else's writing, both published and on YWS. There are incredible writers and poets on here, and in the wider literary world - some of whom are my age or younger - and it gets incredibly discouraging when I try so hard to make my writing good and it never really happens. Thank you for your reply and advice : )

@Megrim by mediocre, I mean kind of 'meh'. There's nothing special about it, there's nothing that jumps out to people and grabs them. My love of writing it and my excitement just doesn't come through - nothing really comes though. It's just mediocre. As for the books: I read less now, because GCSEs are coming up, but I still read quite a lot. I read a mix of YA of all genres that aren't slice-of-life highschool stuff, 20th century 'classics' like Orwell, and weird authors like Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Osamu Dazai, and Albert Camus. I write between 100 and 500 words a night, depending on how much revision I do and how much sleep I allow myself. And thank you for all the resources! I have a summer of nothing after GCSEs finish, so I'll hopefully get around to all of them : )

@Stormcloud thank you! That makes me feel a lot better : )

Ah, I am familiar with "the harder I try the worse it gets."

Don't try to write well. Plain old forget about it. Don't work on skill, don't work on trying to make the best piece of writing ever.

Dive straight in, write absolute garbage, and, most importantly, write a story that grabs you.

When passion doesn't come through, it's because the writing is trying too hard. Passion and improvement are, in a sense, two ends of a pole you keep bouncing back and forth between.

You work diligently to improve, improve, improve, and somewhere along the way of improving you forget what made you so excited about the story, because the idea gets tangled up in all sorts of Shoulds and Don'ts and Can'ts and Bests.

Then you throw those all out because you love an idea so much that it just tumbles out, you write the first cool thing that comes to mind, and you keep following all the stuff you love and want to write and want to explore and rules what rules screw the rules I'm having fun.

Of course, the result of this burst of passion is garbage— but it's better than the burst of passion garbage you'd written before, since you've spent so much time improving.

Then you go back into editor mode and polish, polish, polish. Cut the bad. Make dozens of notes about what to change. Cringe a lot. Figure out the flaws and maybe work on a few scenes to expand on stuff.

Decide the next draft is the best thing since sliced bread and go back into a blaze of passion, notes in hand.

Repeat until novel is queriable.

If you find yourself feeling bogged down by writing, no passion, everything failing— forget what makes good writing. Plain old forget it. Grab onto a spark and let it burn until the story is finished because you love it and you don't care how bad it is.

"No tears for the writer, no tears for the reader" is a very apt piece of advice. Let yourself love something unashamedly, as weird as you want, not caring about what makes sense, not caring about whether or not it comes across right.

Just write. Don't care about anything. Have fun. You just might surprise yourself with what comes out of it.

@Rosendorn thank you for the advice! It's incredibly encouraging, and I'll try it out on my next LMS chapter (which, funnily enough, I'm writing at present) and this weekend I'll edit my other chapters to see how they turn out afterwards.