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Chicken, or the Egg?

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Which Came First?

The Chicken
12
63%
The Egg
7
37%
 
Total votes : 19


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Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:33 pm
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Sureal says...



How are videos any more credible than the internet? =/ Not to mention that my sources are actual scientists, not people with a pre-concieved religious bias (who are therefore not exactly neutral).

I own a book on the subject, if that's any better?

For what it's worth, scientists already have an explanation for how the complexities in humans arose. By 'organisms' I assume you mean organs? Indeed, we couldn't survive without most the organs we currently have. However, our non-human ancestors didn't necessarily need them like we do. They evolved along with the rest of us, and we're now at the point where we can't go without them - but a much earlier, much simpler ancestor (and I'm talking billions of years here, not just millions - these things weren't even mammals) wouldn't have needed them. They evolved because they made those ancestors work better ... they were an improvement, but not neccesary. However, later ancestors came to rely on these organs, and we're now at the point where they're neccesary, not just an improvement.

Regarding organs ... how do you explain the human appendix? It has no use in humans. It does nothing but randomly blow up and kill the owner. It's used for processing leaves - something humans don't eat, but our ancestors did. It's a biological relic of our past as non-humans.
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Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:37 pm
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NicholasStone says...



True, I believe the Creator could have used evolution to create creatures. I doubt it though. And I'm no scientist, but I know that the internet can be a very unreliable source for information. And it can be reliable. But as for the videos, I think I can trust National Geographic.
He stumbled slightly, the limp in his leg still there. He dared not to look at the place he used to call home. He could feel the heat from the fire, the fire that he himself had ignited. He blinked back tears, as he limped away.




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Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:40 pm
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Sureal says...



National Geographic is entertaining rubbish aimed at the lowest common denominator. It has no scholarly or intelluctual grounding.

Yes, the internet can be unreliable, but these sites I'm talking about cites their sources - which are scientific studies and journals.
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Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:42 pm
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NicholasStone says...



You probably have very reliable information. But as there is proof for evolution, there is a lot more proof against it.
He stumbled slightly, the limp in his leg still there. He dared not to look at the place he used to call home. He could feel the heat from the fire, the fire that he himself had ignited. He blinked back tears, as he limped away.




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Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:50 pm
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Sureal says...



There's no real proof against it. Yes, there are some (incredibly biased) people that try to say there is, but their arguments are factually incorrect. Much of the time they outright lie, and make arguments that they know don't work (but sound like they do on a superficial level) - and they get caught lying, and they get called out on it - yet they carry on repeating those lies regardless. They are aware they are spreading misinformation and deceit, yet they do it anyway.

This has been coined 'lying for Jesus' (or Mohammed, I guess, in many cases).

They make a lot of money out of these lies also. Creatonism is a booming business in America.

For example, did I not just shoot down your proof against evolution, about organs in humans being impossible to evolve? The people in video that told you that organs couldn't have evolved in humans doubtlessly knew that it's an incorrect argument - I'm sure scientists have pointed out to them exactly how the organs could have evolved - yet they happily told it to you anyway. You were lied to, by decietful people pushing a preconcieved agenda.
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Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:02 pm
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NicholasStone says...



No, you didn't. My points against evolution stay the same. One particular video that I saw was not by Christians or any other Creationists, it was by former evolutionists. They were talking about some little organ or something that worked like a machine. Something about the pieces fell together perfectly, and that a slow process like evolution could not have created it fast enough (Because it was a vital organ or something like that). Also, have you studied DNA? The codes that fit together perfectly are immense! Each little piece of matter works together perfectly, like clockwork!
He stumbled slightly, the limp in his leg still there. He dared not to look at the place he used to call home. He could feel the heat from the fire, the fire that he himself had ignited. He blinked back tears, as he limped away.




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Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:12 pm
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Pilot says...



Sureal wrote:National Geographic is entertaining rubbish aimed at the lowest common denominator. It has no scholarly or intelluctual grounding.

Yes, the internet can be unreliable, but these sites I'm talking about cites their sources - which are scientific studies and journals.


+1 it's a bunch of photos with captions that supposedly show you the outside world or something like that.
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Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:14 pm
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NicholasStone says...



JustSoNinja wrote:
Sureal wrote:National Geographic is entertaining rubbish aimed at the lowest common denominator. It has no scholarly or intelluctual grounding.

Yes, the internet can be unreliable, but these sites I'm talking about cites their sources - which are scientific studies and journals.


+1 it's a bunch of photos with captions that supposedly show you the outside world or something like that.


Is that really such a bad thing?
He stumbled slightly, the limp in his leg still there. He dared not to look at the place he used to call home. He could feel the heat from the fire, the fire that he himself had ignited. He blinked back tears, as he limped away.




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Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:18 pm
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Pilot says...



No, but it gets old after a while.
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Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:24 pm
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Sureal says...



The former evolutonist (what a horrible term) you are referring to is likely Michael Behe. He likes to make a big deal about how his arguments aren't based in religion, yet he's a Christian, and is funded by Creationists. He was recently exposed by a US court as repackaging religous arguments and trying to pass them off as secular ones.

The 'little organ' you are referring to is the bacterial flagellum. Scientists know how it evolved. They have explained it to Michael Behe and his companions. He carries on making these claims anyway. He is making a lot of money out of it.

As for DNA - that's not true at all. Most DNA is junk (a relic of evolution, in fact).

Furthermore, there are 'faults' in our DNA. These faults come from mutations. Think of them like spelling errors. Interestingly, chimpanzees have the exact same spelling error, in the exact same place, as humans.

Carrying on the spelling error metaphor - think of students handing in an essay. If they both have very similiar words, you might suspect that one student copied the other. If they both have very similiar words, and have the same spelling errors in the same place then you'll know one student copied the other.

The odds of chimps having the exact same mutation in the exact same part of their DNA chain as humans is ... well, it's extremely low, shall we say.

At any rate, I doubt I'm going to convince you of anything, and I think we're dragging this thread somewhat off topic, lol. The general point I'm trying to make is - your belief in Creation is just that, a belief. You should respect this. You probably shouldn't go claiming your belief is a fact.

Evolution has the evidence. It is considered a scientific fact. You're more than welcome not to believe it - but again, remember that this is just your personal belief, not a fact.

To try to get things back on topic I'm going to end this post with the following observation: eggs taste better than chicken. What does that imply?
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Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:30 pm
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Lapis says...



Sureal wrote:National Geographic is entertaining rubbish aimed at the lowest common denominator. It has no scholarly or intelluctual grounding.

Yes, the internet can be unreliable, but these sites I'm talking about cites their sources - which are scientific studies and journals.


Man, most Discovery channels are no different. I lost my confidence when I saw a description claiming that the Mayans predicted WWII, some tsunami and the apocalypse in 2012. The WWII and Trunami I was unable to find any information about, and since when did the Mayans predict the end of the world? Humbug!

Anyway... Both, although I did vote for the chicken. I don't feel that eggs can mutate as efficiently.
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Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:39 pm
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NicholasStone says...



Proof for belief? Plenty. Watch some of Lee Strobel's videos. Case for Christ, Case for Creator, and many others. And eggs do taste better than chicken. It implies that I like eggs more than chickens. Also, one proof against evolution is that, if it were a real process, it would be happening right now. We would be seeing many transitional creatures. But no, there are many different kinds of creatures, but so many gaps.
He stumbled slightly, the limp in his leg still there. He dared not to look at the place he used to call home. He could feel the heat from the fire, the fire that he himself had ignited. He blinked back tears, as he limped away.




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Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:42 pm
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Sureal says...



Evolution has been witnessed in the modern world. Google 'evolution witnessed'. There's lot of information on it.

All creatures are transitional creatures. That's something creationists don't seem to understand. All animals today are inbetween past creatures and future creatures.

Yes, there are gaps in the fossil record - but that's because it's extremely rare for fossilisation to happen. It says nothing on the validity of evolution.

And with that, I am out. I'll let you have the last word - just remember that I won't be replying to it. =P Because let's face it, we're not gonna convince each other, and we're just dragging this thread off topic.
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Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:57 am
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Pilot says...



Guys, I think evolution is pretty obvious. There's no proof that we didn't evolve from primates that could prove we didn't.
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Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:50 pm
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SirTobes says...



Neither, they were created together by the lord himself.

In the name of the Father, the son and the holy spirit,
Amen
Last edited by SirTobes on Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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