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Do you support the Occupy Wall Street movement?

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Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:43 am
inkwell says...



For those (three) of you in my OWS club, you probably can already assess that I do in fact support the movement. I could explain why, but I'm going to hold off and let the first posters guide the initial discussion.

The question is (but by all means is not strictly limited to):

Do you support the Occupy Wall Street movement?

If so, why?
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Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:50 am
Snoink says...



As much as I support the Tea Party movement.
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Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:56 am
inkwell says...



Not much of an answer, considering I (we?) don't know how you feel about the Tea Party.
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Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:12 pm
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tr3x says...



Yes.
However, the political ideology behind it seems to be eroding day by day.
A lie can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on.
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Si non confectus, non recifiat - If it ain't broken, don't fix it.




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Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:55 pm
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Snoink says...



It's freedom of speech, yo. Let them assemble and protest. But, unless they organize and figure out how to implement what they want, they aren't going anywhere fast.
Ubi caritas est vera, Deus ibi est.

"The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls the butterfly." ~ Richard Bach

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Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
inkwell says...



tr3x wrote:Yes.
However, the political ideology behind it seems to be eroding day by day.


Please elaborate.


It's freedom of speech, yo. Let them assemble and protest. But, unless they organize and figure out how to implement what they want, they aren't going anywhere fast.


It's less about what they want right now, and more about what they disagree with, as they generate awareness and change the national discussion.

They've organized via their general assembly to create a declaration.

Their consented statement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8o3peQq79Q

Spoiler! :
The Official Declaration of the Occupation of Wall Street read by Keith Olbermann 10-05 2011

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power.

We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments.

We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one's skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers' healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people's lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!


On a base level I personally find they want to criminally prosecute banks for their fraudulent behavior; they want less austerity; they want the 1% to pay their fair share; etc. It is a broad and complex movement but that shouldn't disqualify it this soon. For the sake of discussion, would you disagree with any of the reasons above that a OWSer might be out creating awareness?
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Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:40 pm
Kamas says...



I think OWS is ridiculous. There's never been anything wrong about people earning money. Dancing around protesting against those who win money because you don't is silly. Considering that the 1% percent these protestors are whining about paid 38% of the federal income taxes, it seems ridiculous to demand them to pay more.

The said 99% is coming from middle class citizens, not really the 99%. I find is funny to turn on the news to have young adults in their manufactured and hipster distressed jeans protesting against something they barely understand as they have not really done the amount of work the said 1% has put into getting to where they are. Even funnier when those in my area begin protesting the human rights violation that is the eviction of the OWS settlement on Wall Street.

If the suppressed middle class continues to have issues, they have too much free time and they may as well get to work. With so little organization they can't even begin to bother a system of work that's been stitched into the Western world and so throwing tantrums over whatever human rights violations that comes with temporary eviction to deal with sanitary conditions, I can't begin to take this movement seriously. If they want something effective, they better stop referencing themselves to some modern French Revolution and actually organize something past the uncleanly campouts.
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Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:12 am
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tr3x says...



While I respect the core ideology - ending crony capitalism, pulling corporations out of Congress and the government, ensuring more equitable taxation - it seems more and more as if the protesters are merely petulant children. Sure they have established a manifesto, and sure they've marched out with their spiffy slogans and signs, but do they expect things to change merely because they are screaming for it to happen? They've told us all about the governments wrongdoings - but not what they would do to fix things. If you want to get anything done, you've got to do it yourself. Simply yelling out "Things are bad, so fix it" isn't enough.
On top of that squatting in public space does nothing to improve their image in the eyes of the middle class.
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Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:31 am
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Snoink says...



Really? They don't want anything? They just want to disagree? They just want to raise awareness? Yeah. Right. Even if they only wanted to have things change, they still want something. And, unless they figure out how to get what they want, they, as a group of people, are going to be ineffective.

And, if their target seems to be what I think it is, then nothing significant is going to happen. They are targeting institutions, as if that will do anything. It won't. What is at problem here is that lovely sin known as greed. People have been at war with greed for eons. Things might change temporarily or get slightly, but in the end, it'll all be the same. Especially if they insist that it's the institution at fault, not basic human character.
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Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:36 am
tr3x says...



I did not say they don't want anything. They obviously want a lot of things. I said that aside from yelling about it, they aren't doing anything to get it.
A lie can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on.
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Si non confectus, non recifiat - If it ain't broken, don't fix it.




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Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:43 am
Snoink says...



I was talking to inkwell, tr3x. :P I agree with you on that point, however. ^
Ubi caritas est vera, Deus ibi est.

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Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:00 am
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inkwell says...



Kamas wrote:I think OWS is ridiculous. There's never been anything wrong about people earning money. Dancing around protesting against those who win money because you don't is silly. Considering that the 1% percent these protestors are whining about paid 38% of the federal income taxes, it seems ridiculous to demand them to pay more.

The said 99% is coming from middle class citizens, not really the 99%. I find is funny to turn on the news to have young adults in their manufactured and hipster distressed jeans protesting against something they barely understand as they have not really done the amount of work the said 1% has put into getting to where they are. Even funnier when those in my area begin protesting the human rights violation that is the eviction of the OWS settlement on Wall Street.

If the suppressed middle class continues to have issues, they have too much free time and they may as well get to work. With so little organization they can't even begin to bother a system of work that's been stitched into the Western world and so throwing tantrums over whatever human rights violations that comes with temporary eviction to deal with sanitary conditions, I can't begin to take this movement seriously. If they want something effective, they better stop referencing themselves to some modern French Revolution and actually organize something past the uncleanly campouts.



Kamas, you're better than this.

Do you know how these people earn their money? Hmmm. They start buy shoveling money at the govt. Then they deregulate themselves. Then they bundle up a ton of bad mortgages and begin selling them. (But ink, no one should of bought these!). Ah, but because of manipulative derivatives, and corrupt ratings agencies, they passed these mortgage bundles for triple A credit rating. Pension funds HAVE to buy these AAA Collateralized Debt Obligations. FYI, these CDO's are the ones mentioned before, with the toxic loans in them.

You get what happens when the loans are defaulted on, when the housing bubble blows up. And afterwards, no one is prosecuted. Instead we hand them all TRILLIONS of dollars and don't expect any of it back. That is criminal. And that is the tip of the iceberg. This is NOT capitalism, Kamas. What you don't realize, is that despite the actual rates, most of the top corporations (1%) have been paying ZERO taxes. Or, these people take their money through capital, which is taxed at like 15%. These are not a bunch of hipsters. I saw a sixty year old woman the other day. She can barely survive because the government has decided her life's not a priority. There are veterans as well, wanting to end these unjustifiable wars. And there is not a single thing funny about human rights violations. There are journalist in the dozens being denied the ability to report. There are people being searched without warrants, with their tents, laptops, and other personal possessions being TRASHED. There are people being unhallowed to gather and grieve. This is our democracy dying. There was no "sanitary issues"! Bloomberg is part of the one percent and he is enacting martial law. The NYPD have recently received FIVE MILLION dollars from Jamie Dimon (JP Morgan).

And too much free time? REALLY? Unemployment is at an unprecedented high. Of course they have free time. We are in the middle of a jobless recovery. The 1% are laughing their asses to the bank because hell, thirty-forty years ago they got fed up with our unions and worker's rights. They bought up the govt. and allowed themselves to take their jobs to places like China. Do you realize there was a time in American history where wealth was democratized? Where the 1% owned 9%?

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Turn off your television and start thinking critically.
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Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:20 am
confetti says...



I'm indifferent to it. I mean, good for them for doing something to raise awareness, but ehhh... I mean, I don't see the huge problem. No matter how much money people have, we all end up dead. What's the huge deal. You don't need a ton of money to be happy, work with what you've got. I hope I don't sound like an idiot, I'm not overly familiar with OWS, but I think that same thing I said would apply.
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Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:21 am
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Lumi says...



Inkwell wrote:This is just the tip of the iceberg. Turn off your television and start thinking critically.


Unless people stop camping out in city streets and propose solutions to the problem, then I don't think anyone supporting or taking part in OWS is really thinking critically. ;)

I'm with Snoink. The people have a point, and I feel for them. I've been hunting a job for the past year in different venues while in and out of college, and there's nothing, even in the minimum wage pool. But you don't see me grabbing my buddies and protesting in Atlanta. So until one of these protests turns into "look at how we can fix this", they're pointless. Just giving a bigger venue to antagonize wealthy people and policemen.

I mean, really. I'm convinced at this point that the bulk of the jobless middle class will do anything to get a pair of devil horns drawn on Capitol Hill.

Anyway, it'd be interesting to see the demographic of college majors that's present in the OWS mobs. I doubt you'd find many engineering/biochem/pre-pharmacy folks in the lot. English majors, psych majors...things that America has no job market for. There's a context to be understood about society that I don't think a lot of ambitious folks get. And it's a huge fulcrum shift in the job market. Yeah, it sucks, but it doesn't have to suck if you have the right gear under your belt.
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Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:23 am
inkwell says...



Really? They don't want anything? They just want to disagree? They just want to raise awareness? Yeah. Right. Even if they only wanted to have things change, they still want something. And, unless they figure out how to get what they want, they, as a group of people, are going to be ineffective.

And, if their target seems to be what I think it is, then nothing significant is going to happen. They are targeting institutions, as if that will do anything. It won't. What is at problem here is that lovely sin known as greed. People have been at war with greed for eons. Things might change temporarily or get slightly, but in the end, it'll all be the same. Especially if they insist that it's the institution at fault, not basic human character.


I said it's not as prominent as what they disagree with. Of course they want things. End the wars, stop the austerity measures, etc.

There's already been legislation introduced thanks to them. Legislation to overturn the Citizens United ruling. It would even deny corporations personhood. Moreover, they have changed the national discussion. You can't be a defeatist. Things do change and can again.

While I respect the core ideology - ending crony capitalism, pulling corporations out of Congress and the government, ensuring more equitable taxation - it seems more and more as if the protesters are merely petulant children. Sure they have established a manifesto, and sure they've marched out with their spiffy slogans and signs, but do they expect things to change merely because they are screaming for it to happen? They've told us all about the governments wrongdoings - but not what they would do to fix things. If you want to get anything done, you've got to do it yourself. Simply yelling out "Things are bad, so fix it" isn't enough.
On top of that squatting in public space does nothing to improve their image in the eyes of the middle class.


They seem like mere petulant children through the lens of FOX news and the like. But when you step out and join them you'll find a diverse crowd. Step back into history for a second. Would you call them petulant children?

Spoiler! :
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