Young Writers Society

I don't think it has to be so black and white. That's kind of like saying, you can't save everyone so why save anyone? The way I see it, it has been so easy to change my lifestyle to include only products that are ethically produced, so that was something I could do to help animals (who can't help themselves). Confetti, your problems with sweat shops and the conditions in which some humans have to live shouldn't have any effect on your opinions of Veganism, Vegans aren't choosing animals over people, not at all. In fact the two things are quite unrelated. I mean, do you wear shoes? Do you wear clothes? Are you 100% sure that you personally aren't contributing to the very problem you just accused Vegans of perpetuating? You know, as lots of vegans won't wear leather or wool, they quite often buy hand made clothing, or second hand clothing which actually does mean that they buy less clothing made in sweat shops.

The point is, the treatment of humans and people's decisions surrounding what they personally consume aren't related. Just because you can't be an advocate for everything doesn't mean you shouldn't be an advocate for something.

I totally agree with you there is nothing wrong with a modified life style like that. In fact since I am still maturing a do eat fish and chicken for protein purposes.But as you said the little things can make a difference. I am totally with.

For dairy, the situation is much worse, particularly here in Australia. The image of cows wondering around in pastures isn't necessarily what goes on in most dairy farms. Whilst it is true that after having a calf, cows will continue to produce milk, but did you know that to get dairy cows to give enough milk for it to be financially awesome, they make them have a number of calves. When the calf is born, it is taken away from its mother much too soon, and it causes the cow great distress (they also usually kill the calves).

Anyway, the point is, a lot of practices border on cruelty, and I can't in good conscience buy in to those kinds of practices. Not all Vegans are Vegan for those reasons, but it's fairly common.

It is undoubtably true that there is inherent cruelty in farming practices and in abatoires, in particular, there is almost downright sadism (not for all workers, I know there are many people put in bad situations who need the money, but often when there are people who enjoy inflicting pain on animals it is not monitered nearly as much as it should be) Having said that, I would say Australia is one up on some countries with the pastures, (well, paddocks), the cows actually do have paddocks to run around in, rather than the inexcusable practises of battery farming. This is more from an economic imperitive than a moral one, we have a lot of land, and it's cheaper than maintaining an industrial complex.

I can't believe people still buy cage eggs! In some cases they even cut their beaks off and pump them full of antibiotics, and like you said, no room to stand and flap. It's like a few cents difference, everyone in my sharehouse are broke uni students and omnivores but they wouldn't THINK of buying cage eggs/chicken, they think it's disgusting too, it's not something I would tell them about (Never wanted to be judgemental and condescending about it, then it's easier to see most omnivores agree with our point of view a lot more than they disagree.)

I'm lucky, I live in the country, so I can get eggs and milk from chooks/cows/goats that are pets and are treated as members of the family, who care more about the happiness of the animals than how much they produce. In other places it may be harder to find, but farmers markets are a good place to start.

Personally, I'm with it. But as others said it's definitely not a black and white issue. There are lots of grey areas and lots of different opinions, all of which are justified to a point.

Personally, I'm a vegetarian but not a vegan. This is because I am just perfectly suited to vegetarianism; I've never liked the taste of meat, can live quite easily without meat, and I don't like the thought of eating something which was murdered solely for the purpose of me and others eating it.

The thought of eating meat, what was once an animal, repulses me. It annoys me when people say that animals don't think or have feelings: they clearly do. And so vegetarianism is perfect for me. I turned vegetarian when I was ten even though my family didn't approve of it. I've thought a number of times about going vegan but decided that this isn't the best thing for me. I'd find it difficult to get all the vitamins/nutrients out of a vegan diet and I don't think that using products such as milk from an animal is anywhere near as bad as killing one for food.

However I completely acknowledge that others have the right to eat meat and that they have their own reasons for doing so. For instance, one or two people turning vegetarian isn't likely to change the fact that things are pretty grim with the slaughter of animals in many cases. Some people say that these animals would not have been alive in the first place if they weren't being bred to be eaten.

I know it's unlikely that the entire population of the world is going to stop eating meat any time soon but I hope that at least things improve with the cruel/inhumane treatment of these animals.

I have nothing against vegetarians or vegans, though I am not one myself. I am really not fussy on what food I eat, and I don't wish to convert to vegetarianism. However, what I really do dislike are fanatical vegetarians, who moan and whine and preach about meat. Luckily there are none on this site, but I have two vegetarians in mind. One of them preached it with song, and the other did something that would stretch hypocrisy to a new level.

The first person is Morrissey who is singer of The Smiths. He refuses to perform when people eat, smell or buy meat at one of the band's gigs. He is very corporal, and very much a hypocrite, considering how he personally feels that Margaret Thatcher was corporal. My favourite album by The Smiths is called Meat Is Murder. I love every song, except the title track. Here, Morrissey gets melodramatic and gets very preachy. As I said, luckily we have no anti-meat fanatics.

The second person who distances myself from vegetarianism is Adolf Hitler. Hitler himself was a vegetarian and while this may not have much to do with the general discussion, to commit your lifestyle that a bloodthirsty tyrant used is very very awkward and very very uncomfortable.

Vegetarianism isn't evil. It is a choice. I respect vegans and vegetarians, and don't judge people by their lifestyles. While not a vegetarian, I can see why people would convert to it. The idea of butchering animals, eating animals, killing animals, has been much debated and has split a line down the middle. I am on one side. Vegans/vegetarians are on the other.

I know very anti-vegetarian people. I am not anti nor pro vegetarianism. I am just me. I have a standard lifestyle with standard practises and standard diets. I do not wish to harm people with my opinion. If it does, then maybe if you ask me to rephrase I will happily do so.

Oh, and this is that song by The Smiths if anyone is interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xacRTqk5QFM

Fizz wrote:

I completely understand vegetarianism, but can someone explain to me why they would want to be vegan? I don't get how the use of milk and eggs, for instance, harms animals or how not eating them is healthier? I'm not against it or anything, I just don't understand the reasons for it.

Well, Attolia, the reason I was a vegan (so I'm only speaking for myself here) was because I don't agree with the practices of the Dairy industry, or the Egg industry. The standards for how animals are treated in egg farms and dairy farms vary worldwide, but for the most part, a lot of cruelty goes on in these industries. As I'm sure you're aware, some chickens are kept in spaces too small for them to even spread their wings completely, and they develop horrible sores all over their body because of the fumes of the droppings that are never cleaned off the floor. There are a number of different labels eggs can get to tell consumers that their product is more animal friendly such as 'Free-Range' or 'Organic'. If eggs are certified free range it means that they are given a certain amount of space to roam around in, and organic refers to the foods that they are given and so on. I do eat eggs, but only organic and free-range eggs. The point is, that even in most organic and free-range farms the conditions aren't ideal.

For dairy, the situation is much worse, particularly here in Australia.

My mum is such an organic person... everything has to be organic.

I never buy battery eggs. It's evil, in my opinion. It's like... well what do humans produce that we can eat? Er... OK, say you were some mutant human and you could make chewing gum somehow. Why would you want to be subjected to such terrible conditions - effectively torture - because of what you could make? Free range and organic is what I buy. It's much much better than anything. Lots of stuff is regulated here in the UK so there are 'standards'.

As for veganism... I think that's just taking it too far. No offence. Milk and Eggs were made to be consumed. Why would you stop yourself? Unless it's battery milk, then I can understand. Otherwise I don't. Not meaning to sound controversial, but it's like saying that babies shouldn't drink breastmilk. Know what I'm trying to get at? It was made to be consumed. It's natural. What about plants?

Notice that everything we eat was once alive. That includes animals and plants. That's why I think it takes it too far. It's natural for Tigers to eat animals. It's natural for lots of stuff. Now what makes us different (apart from the way that the animals are kept, that's just wrong)?


Vegans and Vegetarians, if you only are a veg(etarian/an) because of industry practice, would you eat animals and their products if you set up your own farm where you could treat them in a bette way?

Animal cruelty is not the only reason to go vegetarian. Farming animals for meat, especially cows, has a huge environmental impact. It takes far more plants to feed a cow to get beef than it does to simply eat the plants in the first place. Cows hooves compact soil, making it less able to be used for other purposes. And then there's all the methane they produce, contributing to climate change. To combat all these problems vegetarianism and an end to cattle farming is the best option, probably, but there are others. Cows are by far the most problematic, so eat something different. Kangaroos are the best option here in Australia (we're the only country that eats it's emblem), as they don't compact soil or produce so much methane. As an added bonus, their meat is healthier and less fatty.

So yeah, basically my point is that even if you don't care about animals or you think they're supposed to be eaten, eating less/no meat is still a better option.

That being said, I am not a vegetarian. I would like to be, but I am too lazy to make my own food when my family is having meat. Meat kind of grosses me out though, so I tend to pick it out of things and not each much. As a result I am iron deficient, and have to eat more red meat. If I find an iron supplement which doesn't make me ill then maybe when I leave home I will become a vegetarian.

I'm definitely on board with buying free-range eggs. We had pet chickens for many years and I hate the idea of them being kept in bad conditions.


@567ajt

I have nothing against vegetarians or vegans, though I am not one myself. I am really not fussy on what food I eat, and I don't wish to convert to vegetarianism. However, what I really do dislike are fanatical vegetarians, who moan and whine and preach about meat. Luckily there are none on this site, but I have two vegetarians in mind. One of them preached it with song, and the other did something that would stretch hypocrisy to a new level.

The first person is Morrissey who is singer of The Smiths. He refuses to perform when people eat, smell or buy meat at one of the band's gigs. He is very corporal, and very much a hypocrite, considering how he personally feels that Margaret Thatcher was corporal. My favourite album by The Smiths is called Meat Is Murder. I love every song, except the title track. Here, Morrissey gets melodramatic and gets very preachy. As I said, luckily we have no anti-meat fanatics.

Morrissey's hypocrisy is half the fun of listening to his music. It makes me laugh.
That aside, people use music to protest things all the time. There are songs protesting wars and consumerism, so why shouldn't someone protest the consumption of meat? Especially when Morrissey feels so strongly about it.

The second person who distances myself from vegetarianism is Adolf Hitler. Hitler himself was a vegetarian and while this may not have much to do with the general discussion, to commit your lifestyle that a bloodthirsty tyrant used is very very awkward and very very uncomfortable.

With this, I'm just kind of confused. I'm pretty sure that Hitler's diet had very little to do with the rest of his actions. This is like saying you'd be uncomfortable growing a mustache because Hitler had one.

hmm, it took a surprisingly short time for Godwin's law to be invoked in this discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

So, I've been a vegetarian for two years and a couple months now. I do eat eggs and dairy, but no fish and no gelatin. If you have to kill an animal to get it, I don't eat it. (Or wear it, but that's another story too.)

The reasons? There are a multitude. One is the inhumane meat slaughtering industry and the way these animals are treated. I hate it, and I don't want to support it, and so I don't. When I can afford it, I buy organic/free-range eggs and dairy products. But, animal rights isn't my main reason for being vegetarian. Personally, I think that if someone's going to play the animal rights card, they ought to either be vegan or raise their own chickens or somehow know from personal observation that they aren't supporting cruelty.

The environmental impact of being vegetarian, though, is amazing. Think about it, and take the beef industry for example. All those cows have to eat and eat and eat. Those cows take up space that could be used for growing crops. Those cows have to be transported with huge semis, and all the energy and fuel that goes into getting that steak onto your plate is enormous. Even if you go meatless one day a week, it makes a difference. It's why my uni sponsored "Meatless Mondays." Since I went vegetarian, my meat-eating family members have taken this into account and eat less meat, in particular less red meat.

Which leads me to the next point: health. The prospect of having meat on the table not only every day but for every meal is a new development. Before, say, the 1900s, only the rich could afford to have meat that often. And before that, only the really rich could have it. And back in the time of the first humans (whether you believe in creation or evolution or some variation), meat was a rarity, maybe once every few weeks. Just look at how tigers and other big predators eat. They aren't dining on meat every day. Their life is consumed for days or weeks at a time by finding the next kill. Humans, being omnivores, supplemented that time between meals with fruits, veggies, whatever could be gathered. Now, though, meat is as easy as going to the supermarket and taking your pick. But, the human body isn't built for that. Built for meat, yes, but slabs of it every day? No.

I don't know how it is in other countries, but I know that in the States, it's not even just that people eat meat every day, but that they tend to eat a lot of meat every day. Not a 6 oz steak with lots of fruits and veggies but a 12 oz steak with not so many fruits and veggies. Not healthy. And, quite frankly, it plays right into the meat industry's hand.

The main reason I went vegetarian, though, is because I just don't like the thought of killing something...and then eating it. Worse, I don't like the thought of something being killed just so I can eat it. This just bothers me personally, and I don't think people who eat meat are monsters or bad or immoral because they eat meat. All I know is that when I look at meat, I see muscle. And I see the remains of something dead, something that was killed, and I can't take it. It's especially bad when I see something that's still in animal form--like a Thanksgiving turkey. My road to being vegetarian included not being able to eat meat in particular contexts. First, I couldn't do red meat because of the blood look. Then, I couldn't do chunks of meat. No chicken breasts, no steaks, no filets--maybe just bits and pieces in a stir-fry.

Now, even a particularly faithful replica of meat (like a veggie schnitzel) weirds me out.

I believe--and again, my beliefs only!--that if something's going to die on my behalf, I ought to be the one to kill it. That's just my religion, so to speak, and it goes for insects and less-than-cute critters. If I can't bring myself to kill it, maybe it doesn't deserve to die. I once slept with four gigantic spiders on my ceiling just because I couldn't bring myself to kill them by smashing them (a quick death) and I couldn't reach them well enough to take them back outside. I think the only things I still kill intentionally (i.e. I don't step on them) are mosquitoes, flies, and black widow spiders. Mosquitoes and flies because they spread disease, and black widow spiders because I have pets.

And thus, while I could never do it myself, I'm okay with things like fishing. And a friend of mine does his own slaughtering, which means he's in control and taking responsibility for that animal's life, rather than just throwing the meat thing into the grocery cart and never giving it a second thought.

(Oh, and I kill characters too. Often and frequently. Mwahahahaha.)

As for some other issues raised... I know I read a critique of vegetarianism/veganism once that said something like, "Well, there'd be too many animals if we didn't eat them!" And that's a little silly, frankly, because the reason there are so many cows, pigs, chickens, etc. is that we breed them to eat them. So reducing the demand would reduce the supply.

And as for the putting animal rights before human rights things... We all have to pick our battles. But just because I went vegetarian but still buy paper books and drive a car or buy this brand of chocolate doesn't mean that I value animal rights more than human rights, or that the "good" of being vegetarian/a conscious meat consumer (being a conscious meat consumer is all I ask of meat-eaters) is negated. Ideally, I'd live a lifestyle that was all fair-trade/organic, where I grew a lot of my own food and had my own chickens and only went by bike or foot. That's how I want to live, but the reality of how I can live is different, so I do what I can. And for me, that was going veggie. Seeing as how I don't even like meat, that was a good start.

I just don't really like vegetarians with a "holier-than-thou" attitude.
If you're against animal cruelty, that's fine.
If you're allergic, or it makes you feel ill, that's fine.
If it's against your religion or your culture, that's fine.

Just don't come to me and say you're better than I am because you've never eaten bacon.

Last time I checked, I was built to have a balanced all around diet.
I love my vegetables, I love my bacon, so I eat both. No religious views hinder me from eating either (although after watching Food Inc. I am a little more careful about where I get my food) and I have no problem with any of it.

For those who are worried about taking the- life of an animal to provide food for yourself, it happens in nature all the time, it's natural...

I wish every meat-eater could be this honest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3c0THQbdDE

I, personally, am a carnivore and cannot live without meat. For one, I like, and two, in my culture, meat is like salt: you HAVE to have it somewhere in your meal and it adds flavor.
And personally, I could care less if you are a vegan or vegetarian. My English teacher is a vegetarian, and my Sunday School teacher is a raw vegan, and I love them. It's not like it is bothering me or hurting me in any way.
Until it does bother me, then I care:

BadlyDrawnLightning wrote:I just don't really like vegetarians with a "holier-than-thou" attitude.
If you're against animal cruelty, that's fine.
If you're allergic, or it makes you feel ill, that's fine.
If it's against your religion or your culture, that's fine.

Just don't come to me and say you're better than I am because you've never eaten bacon.

I have experienced encounters like this more than I would have liked, and that's the only time I care what you eat. People should be able to eat meat and not have someone say they are inferior for doing so.
And thank God there are down-to-earth vegans and vegetarians out there that don't do this, or my view might be a bit different.

I just don't understand why some people think they are better because they eat only organic foods and greens..? Anyone have some reasoning to share with me? I genuinely would like to know.

I respect both vegetarians and vegans 100% for their various beliefs about animal products. That said, as a Christian, animals were given to us for sustenance by God. Thus, eating animals is not wrong.

Plus, I like meat...

I have many friends who are vegetarian or vegan, and I don't have anything against it.
I thought about being vegetarian a few years ago, but then I realized how much meat my family eats and how hard it would be to cook a separate meal in our small kitchen.
My cousin was a vegetarian for over a year, but then he got sick and couldn't fight it off because he wasn't getting the type of nutrition he needed from the foods he cut out. His reasons weren't animal cruelty or anything; he was just irritated at how much energy is wasted to slaughter animals. Anyway, I love animals, but I love meat as well.
-Sea-

I've been vegetarian all my life and haven't seen the point of eating meat now.
Why?
I consider it cruel. What gives us the right to kill another animal? Or more specifically, what gives us the right to capture animals, rear them, make them fat, and kill them? It could be argued that animals are hunters as well. But do the have a choice? Can they live without killing another being for their own safety? No.
We have the ability to understand and not kill a fellow being, so why eat meat? Is it really necessary? No. We can have vegetables and fruits.
But then again, we're hurting plants. They are living as well, aren't they?

AhmadBlues wrote:What about plants?

But- Humans have the ability to grow more plants, bring them to life. But we can't do that for animals.
In my opinion, if killing a fellow being can be avoided, it should.
Another reason would be it has less environmental impact. Basically-

Pigeon3 wrote:It takes far more plants to feed a cow to get beef than it does to simply eat the plants in the first place. Cows hooves compact soil, making it less able to be used for other purposes.

I completely agree with that.
About being vegan- I don't know. It might be going a bit extreme.