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God vs.Science

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Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:12 pm
Karzkin says...



In what does it lead you to believe it is argumentative???

I read it in a book.

Where is the Bible wrong? Can you show me just one indisputable evidence?

The flood. Jonah surviving ingestion. The sun standing still at Gibeon. The walls of Jericho falling when shouted at. The ark of the covenant killing anyone who touched it. Gideon's sheepskin. Elijah's cloak parting the Jordan river. Tongues of fire at Pentecost. etc. I'm sorry, I have to call "faaaaaaaake" on all of these.
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:19 pm
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charcoalspacewolfman says...



Wow, you must be pretty old to have been there to witness all this stuff not happening.

So that doesn't really do much to answer, it's just sarcastic. Well, actually it is, but the point is, you can't possibly prove it wrong because you weren't actually there and didn't see it.

Those are miracles, for the most part. The flood is one thing that actually left behind evidence today. If you want to know where this evidence is, look around. The Grand canyon is a good example, as there was another thing quite similar that happened when Mount Saint Helen's erupted; water carved a canyon into the landscape. They say the Grand Canyon is all carved from the Colorado River over an indeterminate amount of time, but if you consider that a flood can produce such results in a very short time, and is indeed recorded as such, it makes a good deal of sense.
Now most of the rest of that stuff is simply stuff that God did that is outside the natural order. Touching the ark kills people because God said not to and people would die if they did. He doesn't lie, so it makes a lot of sense that they would.
Now really none of this stuff, with the exception of the flood, perhaps, can be observed, as miracles are pretty much a one-time deal (and we don't know where the ark is, presently, so we can't test it to find out if people die when they touch it or not). Such is the case with history; you have to rely not only on the account itself, but also on any witnesses available.
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:14 pm
Karzkin says...



Right, so anything you can't explain is put down to "miracle" rather than "maybe I'm wrong"? How truly obstinate.
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:19 pm
charcoalspacewolfman says...



Isn't it, though? The way I see it, it's God's creation and he can do what he wants with it,
I like to take the Bible at face value rather than twisting it around to compromise. Much like marriage, if you can't deal with the uncomfortable bits, you're not obligated to do it. if you can, do it.
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:24 pm
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Cole says...



ZLYF:

Were the Jews still fervently following God by that time? If they were not, there would be no reason why they should care one way or the other. And although Judaism and Christianity are related, they are not the same.


Devout Jews were probably still worshipping God the same way they always had been. And yes, I know that Christianity and Judaism have differences.

Really? Can you provide a reference? I’m a little short on those kind of references.


Honestly, why do I need to reference a few-thousand-year-old tradition? I was taught this during my classes at a temple.

Can I ask you a series of questions, Hayden?
Is the poetry in Genesis different from the poetry in other books?
If yes: “How do we know it is poetry? Is there any other texts that use such kind of poetry? How is it different?”
If no: “How is it not different? Is then Joseph just a poetrical figure?”


I said some of it is considered poetry, but it is not explicitly poetry. It is a Book of Law before anything. Yet, it does have very poetic qualities, like many of the other poetry books in the Bible. For example, the story of the Tower of Babel is actually a pun in Hebrew, believe it or not. It is also a poem with heavy chiastic structure.

The Book of Job is pure poetry. Does it mean Job could have existed? Sure! Joseph is no different. There may be many truths in Genesis, but the Jews generally do not see it as a Book of History.


Karzkin:

Allow me to answer on Hayden's behalf. Genesis is not poetry. It is more or less an argumentative essay. That doesn't lend it any more shreds of credibility, but it does allow one to read it in context.


Thanks for the help, Karzkin, but most of it is, in fact, parables and poetry. It isn't an "argumentative essay".

Right, so if the method/science of the bible does not add up you can avoid looking like an ass by saying "it's poetry, it's not meant to be literal" or "the author was just a humble fisherman, of course it's off in places" or "it's right in the original Hebrew or Koine, it must be a translation error" - basically anything other than admitting that the bible is wrong?


You're missing the point.

I'm just going to narrow it down to Genesis, since it is truly the only book that deeply concerns science. The point is that Genesis shouldn't be taken literally anyway! The book of Genesis originated from Judaism, and it has hardly ever been taken completely literally by Jews--even to this day. (I say "hardly ever" because there are some orthodox sects of Judaism that take it completely literally.)

Isaac ben Samuel, a 13th century rabbi, actually estimated a very accurate age of the universe by using Genesis and a passage from Psalms! He determined that the universe was actually about 15 billion years old (placing the big bang to approximately 3.7 billion years ago). The Psalm passage he used was "A thousand years in Your sight are but as yesterday" (Psalm 90:4).

Many Jews do not believe Genesis is a literal story—and as shown above, a broader understanding of the text can actually be more beneficial than a literal understanding.

I said that the categorization of Genesis being a Book of Law was not my doing--it has been understood that way by Jews for thousands of years. It's not my excuse to try to keep from confessing that Scripture is wrong--it's just the way it is and it's been understood that way for thousands of years.

The flood. Jonah surviving ingestion. The sun standing still at Gibeon. The walls of Jericho falling when shouted at. The ark of the covenant killing anyone who touched it. Gideon's sheepskin. Elijah's cloak parting the Jordan river. Tongues of fire at Pentecost. etc. I'm sorry, I have to call "faaaaaaaake" on all of these.


Truth be told, some of these actually have natural, scientific, plausible, and realistic explanations. However, some of these... it's honestly where faith comes in. As Christ said "Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe". I think that quote applies to more than just His resurrection--it applies to all things supernatural.

It takes faith to truly understand the Bible and some people are just incapable of having faith in the supernatural. I used to be that way.


Wolfman:

Those are miracles, for the most part. The flood is one thing that actually left behind evidence today. If you want to know where this evidence is, look around. The Grand canyon is a good example, as there was another thing quite similar that happened when Mount Saint Helen's erupted; water carved a canyon into the landscape. They say the Grand Canyon is all carved from the Colorado River over an indeterminate amount of time, but if you consider that a flood can produce such results in a very short time, and is indeed recorded as such, it makes a good deal of sense.


I would not say the Grand Canyon is evidence of the flood. However, there is plenty of evidence in the Middle East and Asia that a great flood took place a few thousand years ago. I find it interesting that nearly every Eastern culture has some sort of flood story, such as the Greeks, Hebrews, and Chinese.
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Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:32 am
Karzkin says...



Allow me to answer on Hayden's behalf. Genesis is not poetry. It is more or less an argumentative essay. That doesn't lend it any more shreds of credibility, but it does allow one to read it in context.


Thanks for the help, Karzkin, but most of it is, in fact, parables and poetry. It isn't an "argumentative essay".

Do you have sources to back that up? So far I have one source, and you have zero, so until and unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I'm going to maintain that I am right and you are wrong.

Truth be told, some of these actually have natural, scientific, plausible, and realistic explanations.

Which ones might they be?

However, some of these... it's honestly where faith comes in.

Nailed it. This whole debate boils down to whether you have faith only in what you observe, or something other than that. I have faith only in what I observe, and I personally think that anyone who has faith in something they do not observe is - to put it bluntly - foolish.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

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Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:47 am
PiesAreSquared says...



Devout Jews were probably still worshipping God the same way they always had been. And yes, I know that Christianity and Judaism have differences.

I know you know.

Honestly, why do I need to reference a few-thousand-year-old tradition? I was taught this during my classes at a temple.

A temple? What kind?

I said some of it is considered poetry, but it is not explicitly poetry. It is a Book of Law before anything. Yet, it does have very poetic qualities, like many of the other poetry books in the Bible. For example, the story of the Tower of Babel is actually a pun in Hebrew, believe it or not. It is also a poem with heavy chiastic structure.

How is it a pun?

The Book of Job is pure poetry. Does it mean Job could have existed? Sure! Joseph is no different. There may be many truths in Genesis, but the Jews generally do not see it as a Book of History.

Fair enough.

You believe that everything was good before the Fall of Adam and Eve, right?


I would not say the Grand Canyon is evidence of the flood. However, there is plenty of evidence in the Middle East and Asia that a great flood took place a few thousand years ago. I find it interesting that nearly every Eastern culture has some sort of flood story, such as the Greeks, Hebrews, and Chinese.

If you look closely, most native american tribes have the same kind of legends. About a great flood and all that stuff.
The thing I find most interesting is the great similarities between all of them.
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Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:49 am
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PiesAreSquared says...



Nailed it. This whole debate boils down to whether you have faith only in what you observe, or something other than that. I have faith only in what I observe, and I personally think that anyone who has faith in something they do not observe is - to put it bluntly - foolish.

And if someone were to experience and observe God? Would they still be foolish?
The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more nearly than the other. C. S. Lewis

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Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:17 am
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Snoink says...



(400 silent years. Nothing was written during this period.)


Maccabees never existed. Nope. Better take it out. :P
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Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:23 am
Cole says...



Ugh! I'm sorry Snoink! This is--what--the second time I've done that? Sorry.... : (
My heart holds all secrets; my heart tells no lies.

~Hosea 6:3~
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Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:34 am
Cole says...



ZLYF:

A temple? What kind?


A synagogue. I studied at one for a year for my Christian confirmation.

How is it a pun?


The word "Babel", derived from balal, actually means "confusion/disorder of languages". Lol. Hebrew humor. There are actually a ton of puns in the Bible, but we miss them when we read it in English.

You believe that everything was good before the Fall of Adam and Eve, right?


Well... I believe Eden was a paradise, not necessarily the rest of the world. I generally interpret that Eden was more of a metaphysical realm and was separate from earth. I believe that it was when Adam and Eve were banished from paradise, they came to know the painful real world.

If you look closely, most native american tribes have the same kind of legends. About a great flood and all that stuff.
The thing I find most interesting is the great similarities between all of them.


I have recognized that and it is fascinating. (Didn't they tie boats to treetops...?) But, I feel that there is little evidence to connect those floods with the floods of Asia. I should do some more research on that, though.
My heart holds all secrets; my heart tells no lies.

~Hosea 6:3~
ונדעה נרדפה לדעת את יהוה כשחר נכון מצאו ויבוא כגשם לנו כמלקוש יורה ארץ׃




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Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:53 am
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Cole says...



Karzkin:

Do you have sources to back that up? So far I have one source, and you have zero, so until and unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I'm going to maintain that I am right and you are wrong.


No. My only source is what I learned at the temple.

Which ones might they be?


There is evidence for a massive flood in the Middle East and Asia, just Google sources because there are a ton of different references on the subject.

The sun standing still at Gibeon... Some suggest that the text is figurative (as is often the case with Hebrew writing) and that the event did not involve a miracle. It is suggested that the Lord helped Israel win the battle in such an incredibly short time that it felt as though the day had been lengthened.

There was another explanation that involved Mars passing by Earth in an unusually close orbit that caused the Earth to tilt on its axis, thus, viewed from the right geographical location, the sun would actually hang in the sky longer than normal (LOL, this is a little too farfetched, though).

There are other very interesting explanations. I'll have to give you some more sources, because there are a lot of good ones about this topic! Remind me to do that.

The walls of Jericho falling when shouted at... This was probably coincidence--or a miracle. But, archaeology proves the falling of Jericho during the Bronze Age. I think here is a reference... not sure if it's any good. I'll look for more, though.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... px#Article

Elijah's cloak parting the Jordan river... I thought you were talking about Moses. There are some general explanations for Moses' parting of the Red Sea, but I haven't looked into Elijah's water-moving abilities. I'll do some research on that!

We can try to find natural causes to events such as these, but sometimes, we just have to have faith. As for the rest, I'll explain tomorrow, by the way.

Nailed it. This whole debate boils down to whether you have faith only in what you observe, or something other than that. I have faith only in what I observe, and I personally think that anyone who has faith in something they do not observe is - to put it bluntly - foolish.


Some people just don't have to ability to have faith in non-physical things. It's understandable.

Good night, guys. I'll be back tomorrow.
My heart holds all secrets; my heart tells no lies.

~Hosea 6:3~
ונדעה נרדפה לדעת את יהוה כשחר נכון מצאו ויבוא כגשם לנו כמלקוש יורה ארץ׃




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Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:57 am
PiesAreSquared says...



A synagogue. I studied at one for a year for my Christian confirmation.

That’s fascinating!

The word "Babel", derived from balal, actually means "confusion/disorder of languages". Lol. Hebrew humor. There are actually a ton of puns in the Bible, but we miss them when we read it in English.

So they named it such as a pun, hence it is, not true?

Well... I believe Eden was a paradise, not necessarily the rest of the world. I generally interpret that Eden was more of a metaphysical realm and was separate from earth. I believe that it was when Adam and Eve were banished from paradise, they came to know the painful real world.

So Christ died so that we would be saved from our sins, but this sin was not committed in this world. Connecting this with “death is the last enemy”, (1 Cor 15:26) I get the impression that death is the result of sin, right? Sin entered the world through death? So, because of Adam’s, and Eve’s, sin, they were thrown out of Eden. Would Eden suffer from the result of their sin?

I have recognized that and it is fascinating. (Didn't they tie boats to treetops...?) But, I feel that there is little evidence to connect those floods with the floods of Asia. I should do some more research on that, though.

Even though they share an astonishing amount of similarities? (Yup, there were some where they tied the boats to the treetops, where they were placed in floating coffins...)
The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more nearly than the other. C. S. Lewis

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Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:35 am
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inkwell says...



Karzkin, I love you for being such a sharp and well tempered voice against a tidal wave of stupid. The world needs more people like you.
"The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible." — Einstein




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Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:01 am
Karzkin says...



I'll have to give you some more sources, because there are a lot of good ones about this topic! Remind me to do that.

Remember to do that.

Elijah's cloak parting the Jordan river... I thought you were talking about Moses.

I was mistaken, it was actually Elisha who parted the Jordan with Elijah's cloak.
Come on man, it's not like you to be one-upped in bible knowledge, especially by a heathen like me. Still, the point stands - even in a book of "history" some things are pretty hard to swallow.

The sun standing still at Gibeon... Some suggest that the text is figurative (as is often the case with Hebrew writing) and that the event did not involve a miracle.

See, this is what I'm talking about. As soon as it can't be explained away, y'all claim "it's figurative, it's not literal". So how much of the book of Joshua is figurative and how much is history? When you pick out the less-than-credible bits as being figurative, the rest of the book seems quite dubious. And if this book of "history" is dubious, it suggests that the other books of "history" might be dubious, and the whole thing unravels and falls into a pile of unbelievable hogwash. Any other interpretation shows a certain willful ignorance and double-standard.

The walls of Jericho falling when shouted at... This was probably coincidence--or a miracle. But, archaeology proves the falling of Jericho during the Bronze Age.

Jericho was a wealthy city in a great location for civilisation. Much like Troy, Jericho has been ransacked and rebuilt many, many times throughout history. Finding Bronze-Age ruins isn't surprising, but that is hardly indicative of the truth of the biblical account.

And if someone were to experience and observe God? Would they still be foolish?

Yes. While it is not foolish to experience/observe something spiritual, it is foolish to immediately attribute it to a particular god. Things of the spiritual nature may well exist, but one cannot definitely say "It's not Jesus, it's not Brahman, it's Allah" [substitute religion of your choice]. If it's all down to faith, why is any given faith so much more convincing than any other faith?

I have recognized that and it is fascinating. (Didn't they tie boats to treetops...?) But, I feel that there is little evidence to connect those floods with the floods of Asia. I should do some more research on that, though.

Even though they share an astonishing amount of similarities?

Remember that the American and Asian continents have not always as far removed as they are now. A single smaller flood may well have affected parts of both continents. Also, been to Bangladesh recently? Huge floods are nothing new or uncommon...


Do you have sources to back that up? So far I have one source, and you have zero, so until and unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I'm going to maintain that I am right and you are wrong.


No. My only source is what I learned at the temple.

The defence rests, your honour.

Karzkin, I love you for being such a sharp and well tempered voice against a tidal wave of stupid. The world needs more people like you.

Thank you Inky, I try.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

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