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Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:48 pm
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Fishr says...



If you own it, my respect for you has lowered.
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Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:21 pm
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tr3x says...



Why, Fishr? On a Kindle, you can not only store hundreds of books, and essentially carry your entire library around with you, but you also don't kill tree's to read the moaning and groaning of Stephenie Meyer. Paper books, while lovely to hold, and feel, and read, are definitely lass convenient, and more damaging than ebooks are. Also, a Kindle will let you read in practically any lighting. This is really useful for me as I travel by air a lot. You can turn up the screen brightness when it is dark, and the e-ink display means that you won't be straining your eyes in the dark either. My mother refuses to allow me to purchase too many paper books; we don't have the space, and it's impossible for me to take all the ones I want with me when I travel. The Kindle is a marvelous product of modern technology that is increasing the accessibility of literature and the written word.
A lie can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on.
- Terry Pratchett

Si non confectus, non recifiat - If it ain't broken, don't fix it.




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Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:38 pm
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Fishr says...



Let me put this in a different prespective.

Fifty-eight of Borders in my area are closing due to no one is purchasing their books. Humans have developed into a lazy pile of slops. Eventually, that's all there will be, electronic bookstores, hand-held. Libraries will close because the book will become obsolete. Much of a nation's history was recorded by hand, and carefully reproduced. I fear if books become a collector's item, a thing of the past, what will happen to our written history?

A Kindle will not give you that special musty but wonderful smell. You will not be exposed to a book's age due to the foxing. A book is a dear companion. A Kindle is programmed to screw with your head, making you think it is more desirable. It's crap, a terrible, horrible idea.
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Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:01 pm
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tr3x says...



And so we progress. Multiple erroneous assumptions in your argument.
You equate the use of electronic technology to pass information as becoming "a lazy pile of slops." we have found an easier, faster, cheaper and better way of doing something. This does not make us lazy. Human progress is all about making life simpler. Would you rather that we remained in caves and cooked our food over fires because that life is 'tougher' than this easy, civilized life? That is what you are suggesting when you say that not purchasing hard copy books makes us lazy. In any case, how is reading on a Kindle any less effort to reading a n actual book. Do you mean to say that because a book is heavier, it makes us 'less lazy'. I really don't understand your point about laziness, or how it relates to the Kindle.

Next, Borders closing down. Hey, capitalism! Make your product better than your competitor or you will go out of business. Borders does a booming trade selling ebooks themselves. Sure it's sad that employees are losing jobs, but why stick to an old relic of a system, when this new shiny one works better, faster and easier than before?

"Much of a nation's history was recorded by hand, and carefully reproduced. I fear if books become a collector's item, a thing of the past, what will happen to our written history? "
So was the invention of the typewriter similar in that it made the previous mode of transference of ideas obsolete? Today the typewriter (and printer) have become obsolete with the computer and the ebook. Progress, once again, Just because we did it slowly and stupidly before, doesn't mean that we have to stick to that way.

"A Kindle will not give you that special musty but wonderful smell. You will not be exposed to a book's age due to the foxing. A book is a dear companion. A Kindle is programmed to screw with your head, making you think it is more desirable. It's crap, a terrible, horrible idea."
Hmm.. I agree with you about the value of an old book, a book loved by it's various readers, a book that smells like life. But the environmental impact of these books negates the warm fuzzy feelings you get out of holding a real book. Save the environment, that's more important. And finally, how exactly does the Kindle mess with your head? It's a tool, just like a hammer, or, for that matter, a book. It is not 'programmed' to do anything to your head other that to display the texts you put on it. You have also ignored the various advantages of the Kindle I mentioned earlier.

What messes with your head and changes your world is the content of the books you read, be they physical or electronic. That will never change.
A lie can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on.
- Terry Pratchett

Si non confectus, non recifiat - If it ain't broken, don't fix it.




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Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:22 pm
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tinny says...



If it's bookshops closing that concern you, then Amazon and online shopping in general are the problem, not ebooks. Why would I pay £8 for a brand new paperback from Waterstones when I could get it for around half that price from Amazon? It's not laziness, it's just more economical. The decline of bookstores has been happening for years

Many chain bookstores now sell ebooks alongside hardcopies. Even a number of libraries do, including my local one despite the fact that it's in such a small town. I don't really see books becoming obsolete either; when I'm reading a textbook I need to be able to flick from page to page, to compare two at the same time. When I'm annotating a book in a foreign language, I need to scribble in the margins to make notes of the words that I've had to look up in a dictionary, the idiomatic phrases that don't directly translate.

I don't really have any emotional attachments to books themselves, personally. It's just a book -- it's just an object -- yes it has a nice smell and all, but as far as I'm concerned, it's the words that they contain which are actually important. After all, a blank book that contained no text at all would be no fun at all. I just don't have space for a lot of books, I have to go through them all every two years or so and have a really vicious cull just to make space in my house. That's just not an issue with a digital medium.

I do wonder though, if people had this same kind of discussion about books when they began to replace scrolls and other older mediums. It's just the way things change.
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Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:35 pm
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Fishr says...



Multiple erroneous assumptions in your argument.

I think not. I was born in the early 80s. I’ve watched a simple phone where you had to “turn” the thing to dial a number, to cell phones being gigantic boxes to what they are today: computers. You’re only fifteen. You have not seen the changes I’ve seen, and rapidly, if I may say so. So not say I’m assuming anything when you haven’t lived as long as I have. By my standards, you have already proven yourself wrong by this single statement, and proven my point.

You equate the use of electronic technology to pass information as becoming "a lazy pile of slops." we have found an easier, faster, cheaper and better way of doing something. This does not make us lazy.
Again, you’ve proven my point. “Easier” in its definition certainly does not deem “better” by any means. You’re basically telling me, pushing a few buttons is progress? Are you kidding me? I bet you use an online dictionary? Give me a break.

Human progress is all about making life simpler.

Wrong! Progress is science and evolution. When we learned about inoculations - vaccines - in the mid 1700s - that break through was progress. Progress is extending the natural life. Do humans need lamps and light bulbs? Nope. Do I need a TV, AC, a fan or a computer to live a happy and healthy life. I think not. There is a clear difference, and if you cannot understand, it’s because society has brainwashed you. You were born in a generation of inventions at its peak, and still accelerating.

Would you rather that we remained in caves and cooked our food over fires because that life is 'tougher' than this easy, civilized life?

Considering I’m a Revolutionary War Re-enactor, I’ve lived this way already. It is quite enjoyable to escape the hoopla and stress of modern society.

That is what you are suggesting when you say that not purchasing hard copy books makes us lazy. In any case, how is reading on a Kindle any less effort to reading a n actual book. Do you mean to say that because a book is heavier, it makes us 'less lazy'. I really don't understand your point about laziness, or how it relates to the Kindle.

If you support a Kindle than you support the closure of libraries and book stores. It’s as simple as that.

Next, Borders closing down. Hey, capitalism! Make your product better than your competitor or you will go out of business. Borders does a booming trade selling ebooks themselves. Sure it's sad that employees are losing jobs, but why stick to an old relic of a system, when this new shiny one works better, faster and easier than before?

While it is true Borders has turned to eBooks, is because those are purchasing Kindles, are not being bothered with a book. Really? I don’t know about you, but I can finish a little 300 page novel in about four hours. I fail to understand your point how this device is superior over a book, when you can do the same thing. Unless Scoliosis is an issue, the weight of a book will become mediocre after a period of time. It’s called “muscle memory.”

"Much of a nation's history was recorded by hand, and carefully reproduced. I fear if books become a collector's item, a thing of the past, what will happen to our written history? "
So was the invention of the typewriter similar in that it made the previous mode of transference of ideas obsolete? Today the typewriter (and printer) have become obsolete with the computer and the ebook. Progress, once again, Just because we did it slowly and stupidly before, doesn't mean that we have to stick to that way.
I can tell you, in all honesty because of modern inventions - progress - as you put it, I shamefully cannot write free-hand for stories, or really anything anymore. I’m trained to depend on my computer to write well. When I attempt to write free-hand, my mind almost always locks up. It’s very discouraging. I know others share my dilemma. All because of Progress…

"A Kindle will not give you that special musty but wonderful smell. You will not be exposed to a book's age due to the foxing. A book is a dear companion. A Kindle is programmed to screw with your head, making you think it is more desirable. It's crap, a terrible, horrible idea."
Hmm.. I agree with you about the value of an old book, a book loved by it's various readers, a book that smells like life. But the environmental impact of these books negates the warm fuzzy feelings you get out of holding a real book. Save the environment, that's more important. And finally, how exactly does the Kindle mess with your head? It's a tool, just like a hammer, or, for that matter, a book. It is not 'programmed' to do anything to your head other that to display the texts you put on it. You have also ignored the various advantages of the Kindle I mentioned earlier.
[/quote]
But, I get a warm, fuzzy feeling reading Antiquarian books already. : (
Last edited by Fishr on Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:38 pm
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Fishr says...



If it's bookshops closing that concern you, then Amazon and online shopping in general are the problem, not ebooks.
Ya, the closing worry me, but you made a wonderful point. One, I overlooked. Thank you. I worry for the written language.
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Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:34 pm
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tr3x says...



You’re only fifteen. You have not seen the changes I’ve seen, and rapidly, if I may say so. So not say I’m assuming anything when you haven’t lived as long as I have. By my standards, you have already proven yourself wrong by this single statement, and proven my point.
You mean to say that since you are older than me your assumptions are true? Seriously? By 'multiple erroneous assumptions' I meant the assumption you made that technology makes us lazy. I'm amused that you have to resort to deriding my age and inexperience, rather than logically refuting my point in order to forward your argument. And no, I did not use a dictionary for that sentence full of 'big words'.

Yes, I do mean to say that 'easier' makes it better. A century or so ago it would have been immensely difficult spread your books around the world. Today, with the internet and websites like these, as well as electronic devices with which people can view you work practically anywhere, it has become so much easier. <-- Hence, progress.

You’re basically telling me, pushing a few buttons is progress? Are you kidding me? I bet you use an online dictionary? Give me a break.
Yes, pushing a few buttons is progress, if you know what the buttons do. With the buttons on a Kindle, you can browse through and read the entire works of Shakespeare, Chaucer, Milton and a hundred other authors. You have an immense repository of knowledge at your fingertips, in a pocket sized device. Does this make you lazy? Having access to a lot more knowledge and literature a lot faster? Well if it does, I'd rather be lazy than have to trawl through a library for hours and hours to get the merest glimmerings of relevant information.

Progress is science and evolution. When we learned about inoculations - vaccines - in the mid 1700s - that break through was progress. Progress is extending the natural life. Do humans need lamps and light bulbs? Nope. Do I need a TV, AC, a fan or a computer to live a happy and healthy life. I think not. There is a clear difference, and if you cannot understand, it’s because society has brainwashed you. You were born in a generation of inventions at its peak, and still accelerating.
Progress is not restricted to extending our lifespan. It is not restricted to medicine and health. Technology is progress. Sending a man to the moon was progress. Did that extend our natural life? Nope, but it satisfied our thirst for knowledge. And if that thirst can be quenched faster by electronic means, as opposed to old fashioned books, so be it. Yes, I want a TV, AC and computer to lead a happy life. Sure you may be ascetic, and survive on food and clothing alone, but with progress, we enjoy more cerebral pursuits. As for society brainwashing me... well, every generation would think that about the next, wouldn't it? Human progress makes life more comfortable.

If you support a Kindle than you support the closure of libraries and book stores. It’s as simple as that.
This is absolutely untrue. You cannot put words in my mouth. I love libraries and bookstores and spend ages surfing through them. But I see the Kindle as a new resource, one that serves the same function, more easily. I think it is sad the libraries and bookstores are closing, but it cannot be helped. What would you suggest? Ban the Kindle? Ban technological advances because they don't fit with your image of how the world should work? What would you do next, ban books you don't approve of? That way madness lay.

Really? I don’t know about you, but I can finish a little 300 page novel in about four hours. I fail to understand your point how this device is superior over a book, when you can do the same thing. Unless Scoliosis is an issue, the weight of a book will become mediocre after a period of time. It’s called “muscle memory.”
Ok, you kind of misunderstood my point here. What I was trying to say is that reading the Kindle is no easier or tougher than reading a real book. The only difference is that the Kindle can store far more books in a far smaller space. That is how it is superior to a book. It will let you access many more books than you could viably carry with you.

I shamefully cannot write free-hand for stories, or really anything anymore. I’m trained to depend on my computer to write well. When I attempt to write free-hand, my mind almost always locks up. It’s very discouraging. I know others share my dilemma. All because of Progress…
I assure you that this is not a common problem. Perhaps you should consult a physician about that. On average, I do between 20 - 30 pages of writing a day in school, free hand. Very few students actually type their notes. We get more than enough practice. This is not a flaw that you can attribute to progress. Anyway, this debate isn't about the evils of progress, it's about the Kindle, and how useful it is.

I'm not even saying that the Kindle will replace all books. I'm simply saying that it is an incredibly useful device, that has numerous applications, and you do it an injustice to mock it, and to mock me for defending it. Also, you have once again ignored the impact that production of real books can do to the environment, and that the Kindle is a viable alternative. Nor have you explained how the Kindle 'messes with your head' or makes you desire it.
Our age difference does not make you better qualified to comment upon this issue than I am. Please do not cite that as evidence for your claims. Also, I feel sad that you assume I use a dictionary, and am not adequately literate to debate this issue with you. Have faith in my literacy ;)
A lie can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on.
- Terry Pratchett

Si non confectus, non recifiat - If it ain't broken, don't fix it.




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Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:36 pm
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tr3x says...



P.S. Why do bookshops closing worry you if sites like Amazon still sell and deliver hardcopies? Do you fear for the medium, or the source?
A lie can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on.
- Terry Pratchett

Si non confectus, non recifiat - If it ain't broken, don't fix it.




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Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:42 pm
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Fishr says...



Trex, before we continue father, I'd like to appologize for being a ginormous jerk. It was wrong of me to attack your age, and immature. I was only trying to make a point between my generation, and yours. Obviously I handled that approach not well. I tend to debate aggressively.
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Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:55 pm
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tr3x says...



That's all right Fishr. I get carried away when I debate too. No worries. :)
A lie can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on.
- Terry Pratchett

Si non confectus, non recifiat - If it ain't broken, don't fix it.




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Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:56 pm
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Fishr says...



I intend to continue but am thinking of how to respond without being beheaded! 8)
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Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:28 am
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Jagged says...



Fishr wrote:Unless Scoliosis is an issue, the weight of a book will become mediocre after a period of time. It’s called “muscle memory.”


There's also this funny thing called "baggage weight allowance". When you travel/switch countries of residence a lot, having an economical, light and reasonably-sized Kindle that allows you to lug most, if not all, of your library at once is a Very Good thing, trust me.
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Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:47 am
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PlasticStarlight says...



I'm with Fishr here.
I'm sure the kindle and e-books are wonderful things for this technologically dependant world we live in, that's what we're told.

My one question is, if it's bad for us to sit and stare at computer screens all day, then how is it good to read your books that way?

I don't know, maybe it is just sentimental. I love the feel of a book. Something tangible, real.
Think of how E-books affect authors as well. With a book in a digital state it's easy to rip it off, just like movies and mp3s now. With the invention of things like google books why would people even buy them anymore when you can look them up for free, much like people torrent the latest Being Human.

All this technology isn't helping as much as producers would have us believe. humans learn, function and emote physically. There is a connection lost in the brain when you take the physical interaction out of it. In the september 2010 issue of American Psych they talked about the connection. For example, there was a study where they took first graders adn divided them into 3 groups, the first were put on computers and played games teaching them simple math problems, the second group was given work books to teach them simple math problems, the third were given blocks or beans actual objects to learn the same math problems. The students who were given the actual objects acutally retained the lesson better than the first two groups. The physical interaction between a book and pages and the effect it has on the brain is something you can't immitate with an e-book reader.
Writing with pen and paper actually stimulates and activates the brain in a way that interacting with a computer doesn't. I'm not saying technology is bad. There are innovations that have saved us and made our lives better. I'm just saying there are some technologies that are simply created to make a buck. Convenient yes, but at the same time sadly we're losing so much in the process.
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PlasticStarlight says...



P.S. Fishr- you're my hero.
Who are we, but the stories we tell.