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Religion causes more problems than it solves

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Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:52 pm
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hopeispeace says...



Sorry, Skins, I completely and totally disagree with you in pretty much every aspect . . . allow me to argue why.

Religion, well, most religions will not cause harm in society or really anywhere. A set of morals derived from beliefs, I feel, is required in order to function in humanity. And these beliefs usually come from a religion of some sort. A lot of religions believe in giving back to the community in positive ways, actually. And besides, part of individuality comes from a person's religion.

You mentioned that beliefs of certain morals can cause harm in society, like the belief that homosexuality is immoral or otherwise "bad". This, I can partially agree with you on. See, because people who go around chanting "God hates f**s" deserve to burn in hell. (excuse my French). I personally don't agree with homosexuality, but I promise you that any existing God does not hate anyone, including gay people.

However, just because one religion clashes with another way of life, doesn't mean that society will explode and cease to function.

AuroraOrodel says:
A person who considers themselves to be of great faith and conviction can say "This is what I know to be true", but that 'know' is interchangeable with 'believe'.


I have to shake my head at this. When a person believes something to be true, it is true, maybe not to the rest of the world, but to them, it is not simply an opinion.
For example, if you were to say "The sky is blue", you would be meaning "I know that the sky is blue". You would not be meaning "I believe that the sky is blue." To most religious people, their religion is as factual as the colour of the sky.

Persy says:
In order to keep a consistent worldview, there needs to be religion of some sort. Religion allows humanity a worth that atheism doesn't.


While I agree with you, that religion gives a sence of self-worth, I also believe in individuality, and if someone wants to be an atheist, or an agnostic, I have really very little objection. I may feel I want to argue with them, but society can function with them just fine.

Disagreeing is part of human nature, and religions are natural and, in my opinion, necessary. I can understand a view point and reasoning for other opinions, but I believe in the need for religion.
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Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:14 pm
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Lapis says...



Actually... It depends on the religion. The need of religion is embedded within humans, and it is beneficial for us to follow one. Indeed, much religion has caused death, but that is due to the general human nature of violence. Without religion, people would just fight over something else. But keep in mind that not all religion have these negative effects. LaVeyan Satanism, for example, is beneficial for an individual to follow, does no harm and accepts only those worthy (does not force people), plus it is atheistic, so no fights over God or any other deity.
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Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:18 am
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Cole says...



Draknghar, are you kidding me? Satanism is not harmless. I'm not trying to target any other faith or disregard the fact that other religious groups have committed crimes: I'm just letting you know that Satanism is absolutely guilty of causing harm.

Here was a crime that Satanists committed in my own area:

They beat and raped a woman in her home, all while mocking her faith in Christ, and they did this just because she would not join their cult. My pastor, who is also a therapist, handled her case. Thankfully she's recovering very well. The cult however, found out that my pastor had taken her into his church so they stalked him, found out where he lived, put a burning cross in his front yard (they had also nailed a cat to it by its tail), and threatened his family. (After he learned how to use a shotgun and then taught everyone in his family to use one, they left him alone, finally.)

Not to mention there have been multiple church burnings caused by Satanic groups, many child abuse cases are traced back to parents or guardians having roots in the occult, and also killings. All of these alone have occurred merely in my own State. It's even worse in other countries.

Satanism is harmless? Hardly.

Every religion has extremists. Religion is usually harmless--but it's the people practicing it that bring us evil.
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~Hosea 6:3~
ונדעה נרדפה לדעת את יהוה כשחר נכון מצאו ויבוא כגשם לנו כמלקוש יורה ארץ׃




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Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:35 pm
Lapis says...



Again, you misunderstood me. I specifically mentioned LaVeyan Satanism, a religion I am a member of. You mentioned Spiritual Satanists, which are basically devil worshippers. Indeed, they are anything but harmless, burning crosses etc. I completely oppose that. LaVeyan Satanism, on the other hand, is an atheistic religion. This means no belief in Devil, God or the like. Please, LaVeyan Satanism basically follows the motto 'I am my own God', and its basic rules include respecting others until they disrespect you and enjoying your life. Yes, the word 'Satan' in the name is rather confusing, indeed, I was believing it to be simply 'Evil', but it has nothing to do with him. Basically the main goal in a LaVeyan's satanist's life to better oneself and rise above others, and get much enjoyment along with it. To sum up some of the rules, 'Your rights end where another's begin'.

Anyway, just wish to repeat that what you described is Spiritual Satanism, which I, and many other LaVeyan Satanists, mostly hate, labelling them by their true name of Devil Worshippers. LaVeyan's do not convert anyone to their religion, because it is generally believed that only some people would have the strength and intelligence to be able to be their own God (making their own rules, following them... Not all can do it effectively and justly).

Now, what you describe is a horrible case. Many fools join Satanism to look 'cool', and the Spiritual religion itself is mostly foolish. I feel sorry for the family that they had to endure such a nightmare, and even more so for the cat. But again, I was talking about LaVeyan Satanism. Much different. Although it still has some uneducated fools, most of these types of people never care to actually research into it.

I might have gotten a little too carried away here... Anyway, peace!
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Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:29 pm
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Cole says...



I wasn't making a mistake. I am aware of the difference between Theistic Satanism and the Satanic religion started by Anton LaVey in the 1960’s.

These particular people (at least five of them) identified themselves with this sect of Satanism, one of them even identified himself as a High Priest of this particular sect. They nailed pages of LaVey's Satanic bible into the woman’s arms and legs.

When they had their trial, they pleaded innocent and said that they were merely following the laws of their LaVeyan bible, which promote active desires such as indulgence, hatred, and sex. They said this is why they raped her.

I know LaVeyan Satanists hardly ever commit crimes such as this. Don't think that I'm trying to degrade your faith. I just don't think it's appropriate to say that there are religions that do not commit harm. I am a Christian and I recognize that my religion has caused a lot of evil, even though it originated from a God who advocates love, virtue, faith, and brotherhood.

Hardly any religious faith is without evil in the hearts of its followers.
My heart holds all secrets; my heart tells no lies.

~Hosea 6:3~
ונדעה נרדפה לדעת את יהוה כשחר נכון מצאו ויבוא כגשם לנו כמלקוש יורה ארץ׃




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Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:52 am
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Snoink says...



Er, this is going to be a little off-topic, but when I was reading LaVey's website, I assumed that there was more spiritual sides of Satanism, since the rituals included lit candles and chants of "Satan!" in a kind of mantra of sorts. So, I was wondering if it was truly atheistic? Or, are the rituals designed to be kind of satirical?
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Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:57 pm
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Lapis says...



Ah, I was unaware of that. Whatever the case, they, by my judgement, were not intelligent enough to join the religion in the first place. They went against the basic teachings, as I see it. Sounds to me like a bunch of idiotic thugs covering their backs with religion. Anyway, may they disintegrate.

Yes, I apologise for believing that you were unaware of the different types of Satanism. I do not deny that all religions have people doing evil under the religion's name. This is a general taint of humanity (not all people, of course). Indeed, this was an important point. Eternal peace, then.


Snoik@ I fear that I have not yet received access to LaVeyan's bible, but there is a slight spiritual side to it as far as I know. A belief in magic is optional. But this form of magic one that I have believed in for a long time before I came upon the religion (indeed, most of my beliefs corresponded). The magic is basically a force within the individual, which I think might be the source of telekinesis/telepathy.
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Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:47 pm
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confetti says...



I feel like I'm a bit late to join in on this, but I love religious debates, so I'll put in my two cents anyway. I'll make it short.

I don't think that religion causes more problems than it solves. There's nothing wrong with the existence of religion. It's how people use it. Nothing is wrong with believing in a higher power (etc) until you take that belief and use it in the wrong way. And so, I don't think it's religion that causes more problems than it solves, it's people.
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:30 pm
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Mythos says...



confetti wrote:There's nothing wrong with the existence of religion. It's how people use it. Nothing is wrong with believing in a higher power (etc) until you take that belief and use it in the wrong way. And so, I don't think it's religion that causes more problems than it solves, it's people.


It depends on what sense you mean there is, 'nothing wrong'.

I personally think it is more healthy for a society and species to be built upon reasoning and intellectual thought rather than unfounded 'belief'.




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Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:05 pm
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livluvroc says...



mythos: a society can't be founded on pure intellect. you have to believe SOMETHING. how, then, did the world come to be? if you believe in nothing, then you have no hope, because what do you want to accomplish? then you have no idea what to do when you die, because even if you were successful in this world, if you believe nothing, you have no hope from life after death.

.....btw, religion doesn't cause problems. it's the people who dont like their religion.
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:43 pm
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Karzkin says...



Oooooh man. Mr. K here. Long time listener, first time caller.

you have to believe SOMETHING. how, then, did the world come to be? if you believe in nothing, then you have no hope, because what do you want to accomplish? then you have no idea what to do when you die, because even if you were successful in this world, if you believe nothing, you have no hope from life after death.

You should read Camus, friend.

Faith is not idiocy. Idiocy is idiocy, but all too often people cover their idiocy with faith.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:09 pm
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Mythos says...



livluvroc wrote: you have to believe SOMETHING.


I don't, and I'm quite happy.

how, then, did the world come to be?


I don't know and neither does any religious person.

if you believe in nothing, then you have no hope,


Let's just assume for one second that there is no hope. Is making up a story to make us feel better about our existence helpful in any single way? I don't think so. I think it's easier to live with life knowing the truth, rather than building it on false pretences.

I think you have a very cynical view of humanity if you believe the only way a person can have hope is through supernatural experiences. I believe pursuing your loves and interests provides enough satisfaction in itself.

then you have no idea what to do when you die, because even if you were successful in this world, if you believe nothing, you have no hope from life after death.


I don't necessarily want hope after death. I like knowing that I have one attempt at life to get what I want from it. It makes me wake-up every day and forces me to pursue things I love so that I enjoy my life.

If I were to believe I'd survive death and live my celestial life in some heavenly theme-park, then I wouldn't bother with my current life, I'd just wait for death.




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Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:38 pm
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Karzkin says...



is making up a story to make us feel better about our existence helpful in any single way? I don't think so. I think it's easier to live with life knowing the truth, rather than building it on false pretences.

A very smart young woman once said to me "it's better to have an answer that might be wrong than to have no answer at all." You cannot claim atheism is true any more than the Christians and Muslims here can claim Christianity or Islam is true. But you can all be comforted by the truth (or "truth") that you each have. Atheism is no less absurd than theism, and agnosticism is for moral and intellectual cowards.

I don't necessarily want hope after death. I like knowing that I have one attempt at life to get what I want from it. It makes me wake-up every day and forces me to pursue things I love so that I enjoy my life.

So without hope for anything after your death, how does your life still have meaning? No matter how well or how poorly you live, you are equally dead. If you have 80 years of joy or 20 years of agony, you will still die, and stay dead. So why not suicide? Cut out the middle man and skip to the chase.

If I were to believe I'd survive death and live my celestial life in some heavenly theme-park, then I wouldn't bother with my current life, I'd just wait for death.

This statement raises a good question; if heaven rocks so much, what are the righteous doing wasting their time here? Why not kill yourself, skip this rubbish, and go straight to the partyin'? (Catholics and others who believe suicide is a one-way ticket to hell do not have to answer this for obvious reasons.)
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

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Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:01 pm
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Mythos says...



Karzkin wrote:
is making up a story to make us feel better about our existence helpful in any single way? I don't think so. I think it's easier to live with life knowing the truth, rather than building it on false pretences.

A very smart young woman once said to me "it's better to have an answer that might be wrong than to have no answer at all." You cannot claim atheism is true any more than the Christians and Muslims here can claim Christianity or Islam is true. But you can all be comforted by the truth (or "truth") that you each have. Atheism is no less absurd than theism, and agnosticism is for moral and intellectual cowards.


On the other hand, there is a saying that says believe the person who is seeking truth, not the person who has found truth.

Your post shows you have a fundamental lack of understanding about Atheism. An atheist simply chooses not to partake in superstition.

I don't know if there is another intelligent life form out there, but by your reasoning, if my neighbour tells me aliens are flying around Mars in a giant teapot it's okay to believe it, because I have no other explanation.

I (and Atheists in general) prefer to avoid jumping to supernatural explanations and discovering scientific fact can show us. It's shown us a lot so far in a short period of time.


So without hope for anything after your death, how does your life still have meaning? No matter how well or how poorly you live, you are equally dead. If you have 80 years of joy or 20 years of agony, you will still die, and stay dead. So why not suicide? Cut out the middle man and skip to the chase.


You self-define the meaning of your life. For some it is family, for others it is nature, for others it is their interests (writing, for example).




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Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:59 pm
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livluvroc says...



you must be type B. you are content with this world and don't realize that when you die (and you wil die), if you believe nothing, then thats it. unless you believe, this life is all the life you have, and that is a depressing thought.
When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.