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Israel, Iran and Palestine, what should be done about them?

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:21 am
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TheTruthTeller says...



you do realise your defending a country that's committed war crimes a country that's been formed because of the guilt of a few countries. It's wrong and a bit disturbing I mean go on you tube and you can find hundred of videos showing act of brutality committed by the Israels and the only reason that they get away with it is because America doesn't have the balls to say, "Israel you fucking stop that or were going to invade you ass". I honestly can't wait until the day of reckoning when Israel starts to get destroyed by it's neighbours because I guarantee you the first thing they will do is start to shoot civilians or blow them up.

By the way most of the people on this site are dumb Americans that have a bias few from watching the news channels in your country I mean really fox and NBC are unbelievable whenever I go to your country I can actually feel my IQ dropping. What I'm trying to get at is that most of you don't really have a clue what your on about. not you Rubric you made some good points sort of, well not really but your australian which makes you cool.
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Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:24 pm
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Rubric says...



you do realise your defending a country that's committed war crimes


As opposed to Saudi Arabia, Hamas, Iran and other neighbours, who are upstanding champions of human rights (I apologise for breaching the rules on sarcasm). More importantly, I am not defending them, I am pointing out that your arguments are poorly reasoned and your conclusion does not follow from them.

that's been formed because of the guilt of a few countries


While this is, to an extent, true, it isn't the whole story. To use holocaust guilt as the sole reason, excuse or justification for Israel's existance (as, I myself came close to doing in my last post) is to paint an incomplete picture. To be honest, it's still a far better excuse for the existance of a country than is used for many others today. More to the point it doesn't get us anywhere. The fact remains that the Israeli people occupy land, exercise the rule of law and do it better than their neighbours. They are armed, supported by the world's only superpower and their existance is recognised by the UN. They are not going anywhere and the baying for blood does nothing to further the cause of human rights.

go on you tube and you can find hundred of videos showing act of brutality committed by the Israels and the only reason that they get away with it is because America doesn't have the balls to say, "Israel you fucking stop that or were going to invade you ass".


I have seen much of this on youtube. I have also seen many of the atrocities committed by arab nations on their own people and the people of Israel. A youtube clip will never tell you the whole story, but it can be useful. The US will never invade Israel. That simply makes no sense in any forseeable political climate. It is far more likely that America will invade Iran, as it poses an actual threat to the region and has been building nuclear weapons. More likely than either option, America will not intervene militarily, but will continue to support Israel (who will probably use airstrikes to destroy the Iranian nuclear program with unspoken affirmation from Saudi Arabia, who will allow the use of its airspace).

I honestly can't wait until the day of reckoning when Israel starts to get destroyed by it's neighbours because I guarantee you the first thing they will do is start to shoot civilians or blow them up.

I cannot share your glee for the death of innocents, even if it were to vindicate my argument.

I honestly can't wait for a day when all people are willing to put aside a bloody past from which no side is free of guilt and move forward for the sake of children who are growing up with the threat of terrorist attacks, appalling living conditions, and are being indoctrinated in the shadow of radicalism.

I fear that that day may never come, because people like you are too focussed on an idea of vindication and victory that no longer has any real meaning.

By the way most of the people on this site are dumb Americans that have a bias few from watching the news channels in your country I mean really fox and NBC are unbelievable whenever I go to your country I can actually feel my IQ dropping. What I'm trying to get at is that most of you don't really have a clue what your on about.


Your citation of sources was a handwave to youtube. Your arguments are based on thin or non-existant facts and accusations drenched in an appeal to emotion. I would hazard a guess that your news sources are not neccessarily superior to fox or NBC (which are admittedly, deeply flawed).

not you Rubric you made some good points sort of, well not really but your australian which makes you cool.


Would that it did, but my people also have much to answer for.
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Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:12 pm
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*coco says...



It seems that anyone who voices their opinion against the government of Israel (government being the key word here), gets branded as 'anti-Semitic'. Even the Head of the UN Fact Finding Mission, Justice Richard Goldstone, a South-African Jew himself was branded as a 'self-hating Jew' when he published a report slamming Israel for its excessive use of force during the 2009 Gaza conflict.

Image

Post Gaza 2009, the true intentions of the Israeli government are being revealed. There is a reason why more and more Jews (some within Israel itself) are standing up against the state of Israel and it is NOT because they are anti-semitic, it is because they know their religion and they know that what the government of Israel is doing is not for the Jews, it is for the Zionist agenda and NOTHING is more anti-semitic than Zionism.

Getting back to the question: Israel, Iran and Palestine, what should be done about them? The only way to sort the problems in the Middle-East is to give Palestine a homeland, one with East-Jerusalem as its capital and one which complies with the 1967 borders. In an ideal world, if that happened, Hamas, Ahmedinejad, Hezbollah, The Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt - all these organisations would cease to exist and Israel will finally have the peace it so desperately desires. However, in the real world, in today's world, this will never happen because the creation of a Palestinian state doesn't comply with the Zionist agenda. So ordinary Palestinians will continue to suffer under the blockade of Israel, their children will continue growing up in open concentration camps with no hope and no future. In addition, ordinary innocent Israelis will continue to live in fear and suffer rocket-attacks from those who are supposedly defending the people of Palestine.

As for Iran, history is a testimony to the fact that the only way to solve problems is through diplomacy. In the words of Jackie Ashley from the Guardian, "we talked to the IRA" so why can't we talk to Iran? Yes, their leader has openly denied the Holocaust, yes the regime has many issues, but surely sanctions and threats of war will not help the situation, it will only make it worse. Peaceful negotiations are the only way forward, if not then we as a planet are in danger of a coming nuclear war.

*coco

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Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:24 am
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TheEnigma says...



The only way to sort the problems in the Middle-East is to give Palestine a homeland, one with East-Jerusalem as its capital and one which complies with the 1967 borders. In an ideal world, if that happened, Hamas, Ahmedinejad, Hezbollah, The Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt - all these organisations would cease to exist and Israel will finally have the peace it so desperately desires. However, in the real world, in today's world, this will never happen because the creation of a Palestinian state doesn't comply with the Zionist agenda.


That's a well-brought-up topic, coco. Let's talk about Gaza. People were willing to slam Israel for the 2009 Operation Cast Lead as an offensive against innocent civilians. They failed to point out, however, that for years Hamas has been launching rockets at nearby Israeli towns and cities, notably Sderot and Ashdod. Israel could not be expected to stand by while its civilians were attacked.

The problem they encountered when they put Cast Lead into action was Hamas's use of civilians as shields. Hamas would launch rockets from schools, hide beneath hospitals, and occupy civilian homes, making it very difficult for Israel to target them without harming civilians. We can safely assume that they did this to make Israel look bad for attacking innocent people.

Israel did its very best to keep from harming the innocent--in fact, Colonel Richard Kemp, a former British commander, praised Israel's care in handling the situation.

Overall, the point here is that Israel extended a hand of peace and gave Palestinians land--and looked what happened. They displaced hundreds of Israeli civilians with terrorist groups whose goal is to bomb Israel off the map.

As for Iran--Iran is a major root in the problems in the Middle East. Iran gives weapons to terrorist organizations, has openly denied the Holocaust and claimed it wants to wipe Israel off the map, and now it has nukes. Talking with them won't help, at least not with the current leadership. Attolia was right; the UN needs firmer backing from world powers. It should have taken steps against Iran's nuclear program long ago. Now it's too late...and we can only await the consequences.




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Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:05 am
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seeminglymeaningless says...



I have read none of the previous replies (except to check that this hasn't already been done), but I have the solution to this problem.

Well, technically I didn't come up with it, the genius Tim Minchin did.

Peace Anthem for Palestine

Lyrics:

We don't eat pigs,
You don't eat pigs,
It seems it's been that way forever

So if you don't eat pigs,
And we don't eat pigs,
Why not, not eat pigs together?

/-/-/-/-/-/

So simple, yet thought provoking :3

!!!Mature Content Warning!!!
!!!18+!!!
Spoiler! :
Off topic, but Tim Minchin's religion based song is even more fantastic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXfmjMlPEic

The music score for this song is absolutely beautiful.

Ten Foot Cock and a Few Hundred Virgins

So you're gonna live in Paradise,
With a ten-foot cock and a few hundred virgins.
So you're gonna live in Paradise,
With a ten-foot cock and a few hundred virgins,
So you're gonna sacrifice your life
For a ride on a UFO,
And when the Lord comes down with his shimmering chariot of salvation,
You're gonna be the first to know.

And so if...
God was there from the very beginning
He invented men and women,
Then He also invented wanking,
Then He said wanking was sinning.
So if I'm feeling randy
I'm not allowed to hand-shandy,
But having sex with my family,
That is just fucking great.
It's all there in Ezekial 8,
Just before He opens up His big pearly gate,
And says that it's a sin
To take it up the date,
Even if it's great,
Even with your mate.

So you're gonna live in Paradise,
With a ten-foot cock and few hundred virgins,
So you're gonna sacrifice your life
For a shot at the greener grass,
And when the Lord comes down
With his shimmering rod of judgement,
He's gonna kick my heathen arse.

So if you...
Cover the bodies of your women
Everybody is grinning,
Because black is so slimming,
Though it's not great for swimming.
But it gives me an erection,
With the increased sexual tension,
What with the U.V. protection
That is second to none.
You'll find it all in the Quran
Just next to the bit that justifies guns,
And says that it's a sin
To take it up the bum,
Even if it's fun,
Even in the scrum.

So you're gonna live in Paradise
With a ten-foot cock and a few hundred virgins,
So you're gonna sacrifice your life
For a shot at eternity,
And when the Lord comes down
And I haven't done my penance,
He's gonna disembowel me.

You say that...
If I...
Stumbled on a watch I'd assume it had a watchmaker,
That a muffin presupposes a baker,
So you must agree sooner or later,
That this proves that there's a creator.
So if I put my foot in a stinker,
You'd assume the existence of a sphincter,
Thus you don't need to be a great thinker
To coclude that God's a bum,
Which negates the words of Genesis 1
Which made Him out to be so much fun,
Until Adam succumbed
To temptation,
And then His only son
Got nailed to a gum,
Or the Middle-Eastern equivalent,
Which suggests that God's omniscience
Is nullified by His ambivilance,
Unless it turns out that He's impotent,
And if God can't get a boner,
I guess that explains the plethora
Of huge erections in His honour -
Because we all know a steeple's just a subconscious compensatory manifestation of a huge stiff penis -
Still He tells us that it's heinous
To stick a penis up your anus,
Even if you're famous,
Even if you're good at tennis.

So you're gonna live in Paradise
Witha ten-foot cock and a few hundred virgins,
So you're gonna sacrifice your life
For a ride on a UFO,
And when the Lord comes downwith his big stiff rod of justice,
I'm gonna be the first to go,
He's gonna send me down below,
He's gonna whip me like a cotton-pickin' negro,
I'm gonna be the first to go.




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Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:31 pm
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Kiwisatsuma says...



It's very difficult to criticise Israel because the history of anti-semitism and the Holocaust is so awful, but I really don't agree with the actions of Isreal recently.

Israel's strategy seems to be massive overreaction to a relatively small threat. For example, in May Israeli forces boarded a flotilla carrying aid into Gaza and killed nine people. Yes, so Israeli authorities had said that they didn't want aid to be sent, but killing people on board the ship? It seems an unnecessary act of violence.

Let's talk about Gaza. People were willing to slam Israel for the 2009 Operation Cast Lead as an offensive against innocent civilians. They failed to point out, however, that for years Hamas has been launching rockets at nearby Israeli towns and cities, notably Sderot and Ashdod. Israel could not be expected to stand by while its civilians were attacked


Israel did its very best to keep from harming the innocent


Isreal's strategy on Gaza is not working. Of course, it was not right for Hamas to attack Israeli citizens, but the only reason Hamas has support is because Palastinian attempts at talks to try and get their point of view across have repeatedly failed. And bombing an entire city in retailiation? Massive overreaction, and only leads to the deaths of innocent people. In the first eight days of the Israeli bombing of Gaza over 500 civilians died, as opposed to 18 Israelis from rocket fire between 2001 and 2009. I don't see how this is in any way "trying not to harm the innocent". If anything, Israel seems to have been trying to prove that it is a power to be reckoned with by using cluster bombs on the city.

Moreover, because Gaza is enclosed within a wall and only little aid is allowed in, houses that have been reduced to rubble cannot be rebuilt. Food and basic humanitarian aid is allowed in but little more. This means that Gaza is unable to have a functioning economy, and so the people making money out of the blockade are the Hamas members who control the system of tunnels through which goods are smuggled. Israel's policy gives power and influence to Hamas and weakens the ordinary Palestinian people.

Overall, the point here is that Israel extended a hand of peace and gave Palestinians land--and looked what happened. They displaced hundreds of Israeli civilians with terrorist groups whose goal is to bomb Israel off the map.

When did Israel give Palestinians land? When Israel was set up hundreds of thousands of Arabs moved to neighbouring countries. It's difficult, because I do think there was a need to give a country for the Jews after WW2, but you can understand why this has bred resentment in Palistinians and led to conflict over the years.

It's true, it was after Israeli troops were withdrawn from Gaza that the militant Hamas took over and started firing rockets, and I certaintly don't agree with Hamas's policy, but I cannot believe that Palestine are the guilty party here. It's so complicated I don't think either one is 'right', but Israel's displays of military strength have only exascerbated the problem.

As for Iran--Iran is a major root in the problems in the Middle East. Iran gives weapons to terrorist organizations, has openly denied the Holocaust and claimed it wants to wipe Israel off the map, and now it has nukes. Talking with them won't help, at least not with the current leadership.

Hmm. Well, I think talking should always be tried, because generally the alternatives are either nothing being done to sort out the problem, or the problem being solved by military means. Also, it seems somehow hypocritical to me to criticise Iran for having nuclear weapons, when both Britain and the USA also have nuclear defences. Is okay for powerful western countries to have them but not other countries? On the other hand, Iran is a much more dangerous and volatile country, with questionable leadership. So... I don't know.

Sorry for the extremely long ramble. xD




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TheEnigma says...



the only reason Hamas has support is because Palastinian attempts at talks to try and get their point of view across have repeatedly failed.


A great number of Palestinians indeed support Hamas because of this reason. Most of these people actually want peace, but feel there is no other way to get it besides war. Unfortunately, there is also a more violent minority who have taken advantage of this mindset to excuse acts of terror.

Israel is reluctant to sit down and negotiate at this point because of this violence. Giving in looks like it will only lead to more disaster. Talks are often pre- or succeeded by acts of violence, which the PLO has not made a great effort to stop. Why would you sit down to talk with someone who uses terrorism against you?

Israel's strategy seems to be massive overreaction to a relatively small threat.


Overreaction happens and results in a huge loss of life (I agree that the May attacks were taking it too far). However, you must keep in mind Israel's position. It's a small country, a democracy, surrounded by large and powerful Arab nations that play host to and encourage terrorists. Any give by Israel is viewed as a sign of weakness. A show of force is a warning to possible attackers.

This means that Gaza is unable to have a functioning economy, and so the people making money out of the blockade are the Hamas members who control the system of tunnels through which goods are smuggled. Israel's policy gives power and influence to Hamas and weakens the ordinary Palestinian people.


If Hamas is in control of the tunnels and is not bringing in any other aid, just weapons, then clearly they don't have the interests of Palestinians at heart. If Gaza is in ruins, they should be helping ordinary civilians rebuild it. Instead they are preparing for another fight with Israel, a struggle that will only bring more deaths and bloodshed.

Is okay for powerful western countries to have them but not other countries? On the other hand, Iran is a much more dangerous and volatile country, with questionable leadership.


You answered your own question here. It's hard to decide who we can trust to hold nuclear weapons or not--people still disagree on whether or not the U.S. should have used them in WW2--but Iran is very unstable. Nukes have only gotten more powerful, and is it really safe to trust that a country whose leaders may well have rigged an election will use nuclear energy responsibly? Talking has been tried with the current administration, but the response hasn't been good.

Well, I think talking should always be tried, because generally the alternatives are either nothing being done to sort out the problem, or the problem being solved by military means.


We do have another option. We can let Iranians take matters into their own hands and elect a new administration. Perhaps one we can trust. We'll have to wait and see.




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Blift says...



*Kicks Attolia*

You know nothing about this topic. so just go to bed.
:pirate3:

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Blift says...



way to go thetruthteller !!!
:pirate3:

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MeanMrMustard says...



Blift wrote:*Kicks Attolia*

You know nothing about this topic. so just go to bed.


Basically.

Since this has been bumped, I think it's very telling that Americans are the ones defending Israel so adamantly...and people from around the world are for the most part, either hesitant to see anything positive from Israel, if not outright hate it and anything related to it. The news you receive plays a great deal in your perception of this event.

To assess what cannot be argued, for the only time in history, the world got together and created a new country in what can only be described as a historical outpouring of guilt for centuries of Jewish persecution (or perhaps a very clever way of ridding themselves of the Jews....? who knows :smt002 ). Did the Jewish people deserve some kind of homeland? Well perhaps yes, but at the cost of pushing people off their home, no, that is not acceptable. The worst part of all, the entire World watched and applauded the actions being done.

I'm sure you would be furious if the world decided to move your family and friends and community for another group of people to come and move in. Then you're left to worse than shanty towns and crammed into little hovels, simply because where your were living wasn't really YOUR home, you see the new people had been living there before over 2000 years ago, before they were ironically, kicked out by the Romans.

Really I have to wonder, why is America inserted into this equation? It was namely Britain that orchestrated the process, and it is no surprise either, that a majority of not just English, but all of the UK despise Israel. Really, the entire world does, and with literally an unending supply of events from Israel. You need not look further than their treatment of the Palestinians and increasing encroachment on the meager land they were given as a "new home".

For the record, I am an American. In discourse with people from different countries and changing the way I received information, the entire picture with Israel is much, much clearer. All one need know is this: the US news will never show anything negative about Israel and considers Israel a friend which is constantly relayed to the portion of the American people that take it for 100% truth, the US funds and supplies Israel (no one else does in this manner, why?), the US has military bases in Israel (this is key, military bases aren't a normal thing, they're placed because of a strategic location), the rest of the world would to have nothing to do with Israel ONLY 65 years AFTER the Holocaust, and furthermore the rest of the world relays nothing but negative press on the Israel-Palestine conflict, namely about Israel and in sympathy of Palestine.

This conflict I think, is something many Americans by default just dismiss and choose to believe the highly glossed and neatly packaged and ready to be devoured story of Jewish oppression. In other words, we seem to rather believe the lie, than to perhaps wake up and realize we made a mistake. More or less, we're being led to support a country in which we receive literally nothing from, except a key starting point into the Middle East region for information and resources. This entirely ridiculous in the ignorance promoted by the American government and completely imperialistic when you repeat that to yourself.

Earlier I saw that someone said the UN couldn't be relied on, and an American, no doubt. This attitude is precisely what has ruined America in the last 30 years, much less promoting ignorance of how a country should interact with others. Yet, I think this opinion of the UN symbolically shows how out of touch Americans are with the world as a whole. To think I am an American myself. :?

edit: as for Iran...don't touch it, don't mess with it, don't do anything. Invading that country would only serve the purpose of validating the opinions which hate us enough already. Was Iraq not enough? I have to agree with the earlier sentiment that it's ironic we target Iran, though Pakistan in its corrupt and out of control state, is conspicuously not the target. This is not a coincidence, as it all has to do with location and resources. Yes, lives of Americans sent over to die for the reward of resources that are not our own to take. You can't dismantle government by militaristic means entering a country to make stronger, fairer government when the people did not fight for it themselves. Because ironically, we've done this to Iran, and the people overthrew our puppet and replaced him with what exists now. Before that they had a democratically elected leader, but he didn't feel like cow-towing to Western demands, in other words oil.




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Blink says...



I have neither support nor contempt for Israel; they are acting idiotically (continually extending their borders where they are not welcome), but then I cannot bring myself to support Hezbollah or the Jihadist Hamas. These are terrorist organisations that use the support of Iran to provide financial aid and stir (an understandable) Muslim nationalism (which seems to have become synonymous with theocracy).

But Israel should never have been created. Zionism is an awful idea, and is nothing short of the racism to which Jews themselves have historically been subjected. It's hypocrisy, and the Israelites are still taking unjustified liberties, incidentally with the support of America. Israel is, of course, quickly becoming a microcosm for the battle between West and the MIddle-East, a proxy war that risks spilling into the rest of the area - the US needs to grow up and disregard its apparent laissez-faire approach to Israel. However, they should not entirely step back, as some people suggest. It's now reached a stage where it would be just as Imperialist to move away as it would to stay.

Despite all of this, however, once a country has been created no state has the right to destroy it. Iran points to Israel and says that one member-state of the UN should be wiped physically from the map with all its people; it's developing nuclear arms in complete disregard to united conventions.

In short: Harder line on Israel; if that doesn't work, invade Iran. I don't want another dictator with access to nuclear weapons and a desire to use them.
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Griffinkeeper says...



With regards to Iran, I think their nuclear program should be dismantled or destroyed. We simply can not allow them to get access to nuclear material. They claim that they only want it for peaceful purposes. The dirty little secret is that if you can make nuclear fuel rods, you can make a nuclear weapon. They are both equally fissionable.

Iran is completely totalitarian. Were it not for their oil exports, their economy would have completely collapsed. It attempts to distract it's population by blaming their problems on the United States and Israel. It won't stop hating, because hate is the only thing left to them. Internally, Iran is changing; the people are catching on to their deceivers.

I would also hesitate to invade Iran. Instead, I would target them in more devious manners. For instance, all communications in Iran are controlled by the government. So, while America can see everything the internet has to offer, Iran has banned numerous sites and limited the information so that only government approved sites can get through. It is basically propaganda. The US should target the filters and otherwise improve the ability of Iran to communicate.

With regards to Israel, I am sympathetic. America and Israel have a close relationship, because many American Jews settled in Israel. Not only did they settle in Israel, but they made it a nice place to live. Unlike the other Arab nations, Israel doesn't have large amounts of oil (it is a net importer). Even so, it is prospering because of the industry of it's people. It's got plenty of food, plenty of water, and they are able to produce high tech equipment. Food and High Tech equipment are their primary exports.

It has done so, all while being surrounded by neighbors which have been hostile since the very beginning. I think that, in terms of working the land and fighting for it, the Israelis have earned the right to their land, by right of conquest. Like it or not, Israel is there to stay and they're willing to fight to stay. Israel has plenty of real power, economic and military, which is why they've lasted as long as they have. (In addition to the support of the US Government.)

Palestine wants to be an independent state; but in reality it is completely dependent on Israel for pretty much everything. In terms of real power, Palestine has none. Without the monetary aid being provided to it by the UN, the Palestinian Authority would collapse. All of their power is controlled by Israel, they have few natural resources, and Israel has a large degree of control over what enters the PA.

The smart solution would be if the PA and Israel were to merge, with the Palestinians getting full Israeli citizenship. This would move away from a state established on the basis of ethnicity (be it Jewish or Arab) and more towards a true democratic state. I think this would be better than trying to make a state from scratch and I think it would lead to more collaboration between the Jews and Arabs. It wouldn't happen overnight and it would take a long time for people to forget the hate.

It has been my observation that, when it comes time to make peace, the Israelis are usually the first to come to the table. America pushes them there. The Arabs, on the other hand, do not come forward quickly.

If peace can not be achieved, then perhaps it must come to war. Only the cost of war is higher than the price of peace.
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AuroraOrodel says...



Griffinkeeper wrote:
It has done so, all while being surrounded by neighbors which have been hostile since the very beginning. I think that, in terms of working the land and fighting for it, the Israelis have earned the right to their land, by right of conquest. Like it or not, Israel is there to stay and they're willing to fight to stay. Israel has plenty of real power, economic and military, which is why they've lasted as long as they have. (In addition to the support of the US Government.)


And do you know why those neighbors have been hostile since the beginning? Because after WWII, some British and American politicians decided to uproot the thousands of people who had been living in what is now Israel and just move them off their land and give it to someone else. If that was done to you and yours, you would be hostile towards the interlopers too. This is still recent history, there are still people alive who remember when there was no Israel. The West created the bulk of the Middle East conflict, but no one is taught about this. Schools teach that Israel is our friend, but don't teach about the people who were evicted from their homeland without their consent in order for it to exist.

England and American had no right to create a nation in that way. They took an ethnic group that historically has conflict with the people in the area and slapped them right in the middle, and were surprised when they started to fight. No one researched, no one thought ahead.

Furthermore, Israel does some heinous and horrible things to its neighbors. Just recently, they've been trying to eliminate Bedouin culture by co-opting their ancestral lands for development, putting the Bedouin people in "temporary" housing, and essentially forcing them to become culturally Israeli, just because they feel they have the right to, and they want the tax money. I have no sympathy for that, what so ever. No nation gets to behave this way, not even Israel. They aren't special, and I think they need to be called out on this more often by their allies, the US included.

Palestine wants to be an independent state; but in reality it is completely dependent on Israel for pretty much everything. In terms of real power, Palestine has none. Without the monetary aid being provided to it by the UN, the Palestinian Authority would collapse. All of their power is controlled by Israel, they have few natural resources, and Israel has a large degree of control over what enters the PA.

The smart solution would be if the PA and Israel were to merge, with the Palestinians getting full Israeli citizenship. This would move away from a state established on the basis of ethnicity (be it Jewish or Arab) and more towards a true democratic state. I think this would be better than trying to make a state from scratch and I think it would lead to more collaboration between the Jews and Arabs. It wouldn't happen overnight and it would take a long time for people to forget the hate.


What a lot of Westerners don't seem to grasp about the Middle East is that there is less separation between religion and daily life, and more connection to one's ethnicity than we have. In America and the UK, we don't see the issue this way, because we've been "melting pot" nations for centuries. Politically speaking, the conflict arises from the fear that if the government is dominated by one ethnicity/religion or the other, the minority group will suffer for it. This is not an entirely paranoid fear; it does have some truth to it. To me, it would seem that to avoid that it would behoove them to set down that there cannot be a majority of one group or the other, and while this might lead to initial deadlocking, it would eventually force them to work together if they wanted anything to ever get done.

However, I also believe that at this point, after all the mess the Western world has gotten the Middle East into by trying to "help" or "fix" or "guide" them...it's time for us to back off. The Middle East needs to sort itself out, with decisions made by its people, not those pushed on them by the Christian West. After all, let's be honest, we aren't really there for humanitarian reasons.
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Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:22 am
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Griffinkeeper says...



England and American had no right to create a nation in that way.


Whether or not they had the right to; they did. Israel exists.

Furthermore, Israel does some heinous and horrible things to its neighbors. Just recently, they've been trying to eliminate Bedouin culture by co-opting their ancestral lands for development, putting the Bedouin people in "temporary" housing, and essentially forcing them to become culturally Israeli, just because they feel they have the right to, and they want the tax money. I have no sympathy for that, what so ever. No nation gets to behave this way, not even Israel. They aren't special, and I think they need to be called out on this more often by their allies, the US included.


Actually, there is a nation that acted this way. I'm talking about none other than the USA, who forcefully assimilated the Indian Nations, shattered their civilizations, took their land, and did so with utter impunity. Before them were the Spaniards, who annihilated the Aztec Civilization with impunity, enslaved the Indians, and promptly began dividing the land up. Need I even mention the slave trade?

But don't worry, once the world found out what was happening they did... nothing. So much for rights. The only rights that are guaranteed are those that are backed by power, be it economic or military. America is special because it is one of the rare exceptions where people actually rule the government, instead of being ruled by the government. Why else is the economy based in the private sector? Why else would the military be charged with defending the American people?

We're very lucky in this respect. Other nations aren't so lucky. Iran, Venezuela, and North Korea are all totalitarian regimes, with many nationalized industries and a military that acts as a cudgel for the ruling class. As a result, these nations are falling into ruin, so much so that their own power will crumble to the point where it can protect them no longer.

What a lot of Westerners don't seem to grasp about the Middle East is that there is less separation between religion and daily life, and more connection to one's ethnicity than we have. In America and the UK, we don't see the issue this way, because we've been "melting pot" nations for centuries. Politically speaking, the conflict arises from the fear that if the government is dominated by one ethnicity/religion or the other, the minority group will suffer for it. This is not an entirely paranoid fear; it does have some truth to it. To me, it would seem that to avoid that it would behoove them to set down that there cannot be a majority of one group or the other, and while this might lead to initial deadlocking, it would eventually force them to work together if they wanted anything to ever get done.


Another option is to throw the people into a melting pot, so that instead of an us vs. them mentality, they get get a we mentality. Religious oppression exists when religion is how people define themselves. Racial discrimination exists when people are defined by their race.

The melting pot is perfect. It takes all the positive traits from all the groups, so that the individuals in the pot can appreciate the strengths of the other individuals in the pot. America takes the various ethnicities and religions and removes those as the primary means of identification. Instead, these things are replaced with a single title: American.

Israel is trying a similar tactic with the Bedouins. The question is this though: are they trying to assimilate the Bedouin culture into their own? Or are they merely seeking to destroy that culture, without gaining anything useful from it? One is a merger, the other an assimilation. I support a merger, not an assimilation.
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Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:34 pm
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AuroraOrodel says...



Griffinkeeper wrote:Another option is to throw the people into a melting pot, so that instead of an us vs. them mentality, they get get a we mentality. Religious oppression exists when religion is how people define themselves. Racial discrimination exists when people are defined by their race.

The melting pot is perfect. It takes all the positive traits from all the groups, so that the individuals in the pot can appreciate the strengths of the other individuals in the pot. America takes the various ethnicities and religions and removes those as the primary means of identification. Instead, these things are replaced with a single title: American.

Israel is trying a similar tactic with the Bedouins. The question is this though: are they trying to assimilate the Bedouin culture into their own? Or are they merely seeking to destroy that culture, without gaining anything useful from it? One is a merger, the other an assimilation. I support a merger, not an assimilation.


This is precisely what I was talking about. America has been a melting pot society from day one, and even we have periods of ethnic and religious discrimination and violence. Assimilating a culture destroys it. My family lost its culture in the 1950s, because my great-grandfather was Eastern European, and there was a very strong stigma against anyone who appeared to be German. If you didn't act 100% WASP "American", you were dangerous, and obviously a dirty commie. A "melting pot" is destructive. It removes one identity in favor of another: the one approved by the majority. What America should be and isn't yet is a salad bowl

Americans, by and large, take cultural and religious identity for granted because most Americans don't have either. It's easy to think that forcing different groups together would make their country a melting pot just like us, but that's not how it goes. Even with its history of being open to all comers, America still resists a large influx of a new group of people. In a country where your religion and your culture are deeply entrenched in your identity in ways Americans can't really comprehend, that resistance is going to be more violent. I'm not saying it would never work, but that it will be a much longer, messier, and bloodier process than people who are used to lacking cultural identity tend to think.

Bedouins are a nomadic culture. Israel is trying to make them stationary for property tax purposes. To me, that's the deliberate destruction of a way of life that is thousands of years old. There's no cultural understanding or respect involved.
"You cannot pronounce as knowledge anything you cannot demonstrate."
~Margaret Atwood

"The good writers touch life often. The mediocre ones run a quick hand over her. The bad ones rape her and leave her for the flies."
~Fahrenheit 451