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Abortion

For It
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44%
It Depends
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30%
 
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Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:21 am
lakegirls says...



Hi,
I haven't looked though all the pages of this site, but I was wondering what people thought of an abortion?

For me, it all depends on the situation, but most times I feel it's wrong.

If a girl at any age is raped and becomes pregnant, I think it is fine to get an abortion. They had the baby with out any say. Actually, if anyone gets raped and becomes pregnant, I do not see anything wrong with an abortion.

What I do see wrong with an abortion is, if someone gets pregnant (without being raped) and they wants to get an abortion, it's wrong. It's murder, if they were stupid enough to go out and get pregnant, then they should have to care for the baby, it was their own fault, they knew the consequences, did they not?

If someone is at a very young age, under 8 lets say, then there is an absolute reason to get an abortion, having a baby could kill them, and I highly doubt that any child under 8 will have sex at their own free will.

Please tell me what your views are on abortion? Is it murder?

Love,
lg*
Last edited by lakegirls on Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:47 am
Lady Sydney says...



A girl has to go through her menstral cycle before she can get pregnant. I could be wrong (and most of the time I am), but I don't know any girls who have had their periods under eleven or twelve. Though, I think it's twelve because my cousin's twelve. :? lol I don't know.

But I don't completely agree with abortion being murder. I mean... it is, but only in some cases. Perhaps a woman got pregnant, aware of possibly having a baby when she had sex, but found out she wasn't ready for the full-time job of taking care of it... or maybe she got laid off like two months before she was due, so she had no money. Maybe she thought that a few years later would have been better. So... she decides to choose abortion (and yes I know that there is such a thing as giving it up for adoption).

I don't know. "Murder" just seems too harsh of a word for some. :? But that's just me.

So I guess I'm... for it. In few, few, FEW cases. Otherwise no. Just... no. Shame on them.
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Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:02 am
Sleeping Valor says...



1 - Be fair

If you are going to say abortion is murder, then it is murder--no matter the circumstances. Which, sadly, means that people (of any age) who get raped will be burdened with the weight of having to chose (if the believe abortion to be murder) between ruining their life (and possibly endangering it) and taking someone else's. But we must be fair. If it is muder, it is murder. On this point (guess now I am actually debating your arguements), why is it that only is you're between 8 and 19? Why shouldn't a woman who's 35 have the choice of deciding not to have to deal with a child they don't want, that may ruin their lives, and that may only hold bad memories for them? Age shouldn't matter, if rape gets you a free pass to abort, all ages are entitled to the pass.

2 - Define, keeping science in mind.

Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Now, knowing that. What is a human being? I think, for the most part, humans are defined by their ability to reason above all else. That's not to say someone who can't reason isn't human, though. There are many different criteria's. Though I think all people can reason, if only a little. But for the sake of arguement, let's say that we're just talking about LIFE. A life form, any kind--reasoning or otherwise.

At what point is a baby alive? And at what point would it be cruel to end a life?

In the very early stages of life, babies are nothing more than a bunch of cells. To abort those cells, is no more murderous than to cut off your nails (or at an extreme, you finger). What you are 'killing' is a potential life, but it isn't one yet.

Biology eludes me, but I think that abortion should be allowed before the baby is actually a baby. There is a certian point (6 weeks?) that it is far enough into development to feel pain, react, etc. At that point, it is no longer humain to end the child's life. When it stop being cells, stops being just a body with a heart pumping--it starts being alive. And then you are killing it.

3 - Philosophy

Who are we to decide who lives and dies? The big debate that comes up when people talk about abortion is that little potential life you are ending. Do you have the right to prevent what could have been a person from being a person? That, I can't say. No one can, I think.

You could ask yourself: if a person is willing to abort, then what will happen if they don't? Is it legal to have a child and walk away, leaving them in the hospital? If you don't want to kid, who's going to take it? People scream and holler over this, but I don't see many of them volunteering to take it all the unwanted babies that they seem to think woman have a duty to deliver at what can sometimes be great personal risk.

Not that that's to say that just because no one wants a child, means the child has no right to live. But I like to think it over, when I ask myself if it's wrong to abort a little clump of cells.

4 - Blame?

Now, people sympathize with rape victims, and seem to think they have more of a right to abort. So let's look at A, who has gone to one too many parties, gotten drunk, fooled around and is now pregnant. It's her own damn fault, yes.

Now--because it's her fault, thus her responsability--does she have to have this baby? Since I think --up to a certain point-- abortion should be allowed, I have no right to say that because she screwed up, she should be stuck with the consequences. In a nice perfect world, we pay for what he do. But in that same world, punishment should be porportionate. Having a baby is pretty bad if you don't want one or can't handle one. It can ruin your life, let alone the kid's if you decide to keep it.

The system doesn't much help, though there is more and more support for teenage mothers these days, which is good.

Conclusion

Yups. There it is. My thinking process. I think abortion should be allowed up until a certain point (development-wise), after which it shouldn't be allowed because it becomes murder.

Now I just have to ask myself (if it's indeed 6 weeks, and not 3 months as the little voice is trying to tell me), what happens if you just didn't realize you were pregnant in time to meet the deadline?

Hmm. Off to think some more. =P

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:09 am
Cade says...



There are already abortion threads in the Debate forum.

But in response to this one. A woman has a right to her own body. I say, her uterus happens to be a part of her body. For me the issue is more along the lines of, "When does abortion cease to be extreme birth control and start to be murder?" That I don't know. But I think there is a point that the fetus is truly a being and not just a clump of cells; the pregnancy at this point must go full-term unless it threatens the mother's health. (That's another side to consider: What if an unexpected complication could kill the mother? Does she have the right to abort?)
Consider this: I know you think that if a woman had unprotected sex knowing the consequences, she should not be able to get an abortion. But what if she used a condom and it broke? Or her birth control medication wasn't effective? (This can happen; they do say those things are 99.9%, not 100%.)

I also second Sydney....how much exactly do you know about puberty? It's pretty darn hard for a four-year-old to make babies. The average age for getting one's period is I think eleven or twelve. But it does vary lot; I didn't get mine until I was fourteen, so it's just as plausible that a girl could get hers as young as eight, and then she could get raped. I would expect that if she told someone about the rape directly after it happened that she could get emergency contraceptives. But I agree with you. Abortion is most reasonable in the case of rape.
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Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:27 am
Griffinkeeper says...



Here are my thoughts on abortion:

1. Time doesn't matter.

It is generally agreed that if one does not terminate the pregnancy, then the result will be a live human baby. While it may not have grown all the parts yet, it still has human DNA so it is still a human, no matter what stage of development it is in.

It is also worth noting that a fingernail, while it may grow, will not grow into a separate entity. Fetuses, on the other hand, will.

2. It is alive. The fetus itself is growing constantly and after a time, it begins to move. If it was not alive, then it would sit there like a rock until it was removed. Cellular growth will continue unabated unless an abortion terminates it. Abortion may not be murder, but it is definitely a killing process.

3. Is this method of killing legitimate?

Human beings kill each other regularly. The difference between murder and self defense are the motives behind the killing. Abortion is one of these areas where the motives of the woman becomes paramount. If the woman's personal safety is in serious jeopardy, then an abortion would be, in my eyes, justified. If, on the other hand, the only thing in jeopardy is the woman's reputation or future, then I believe that an abortion is not justified. Things like the future and reputation aren't permanent, but fluid. Abortion, on the other hand, is very permanent.

In short, the motives behind the abortion should dictate whether that action is taken.

4. There are other options. Just because a woman is raped doesn't mean she shouldn't have a baby. Yes, rape is traumatic, but having an abortion won't make it any less traumatic for the woman. This being the case, why not give birth? If you're unable to take care of it, put the newborn up for adoption.
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Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:46 am
Galatea says...



Abortion should be legal. To illegalize abortion is to show a vast disrespect for the health and well-being of already living women.

Let me explain: Abortions won't stop because of a law. But the death toll that back alley abortions take on human lives is worth keeping it legal. This is about preserving life, yes? Or is a tiny bundle of cells worth more than my fully formed, half-lived life? If that's the case, how are we judging value, here? How is a potential life worth protecting more than an already living life?

The majority of abortions are done by women who are already mothers. Controlling family size is the most common reason cited. Should a family that can't support another child be forced to burden their already living children with another sibling? Aren't the living children more important than the potential child? Many people can't afford expensive contraception, even middle-class folks like myself. Do we expect married couples to abstain because they can't afford what should be a readily available amenity?

My point is, this is a bigger question than "Is it murder?" As with ANY issue, abortion is not black and white.

I do, however, firmly believe that my body is mine, and no one has a right to force me to have children. Don't like abortion? Don't get one. But don't deny others the unfortunate necessity.
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Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:33 pm
Ka Seven says...



In order to ever define abortion as murder, you would have to first define murder. Assuming all of our definitions of murder on this forum is the taking of life, (lets not get into animal rights, haha) then we'd have to at this point define life. Life to me is a being conscious being. So the born babies have a realization of existence, no matter how small. But this leaves to question, does an unborn child have consciousness? And if so, does taking ones consciousness equal murder? This debate will go back and forth until we define the words we're using so loosely. My definition of murder and life could be worlds from another's.
So, I'm going to define murder as taking life. And life as having consciousness. And assuming that, even though it is nothing more than the womb, unborn babies have consciousness. So abortion is murder. But what, then, about cases of rape or death to the mother? When is murder acceptable?
Well, society is religious, and in any religion, save those few unique ones, taking someones consciousness is okay when they mean harm to you, or, as was recorded during the crusades, if they disagree. Sacrificial offerings. Religious war. Holocaust. etc. etc. etc.
So, if defending your self via murder (as defined above) is just. Then that's saying that taking ones life to save your own is okay, so taking a babies life is okay if your life's in jeopardy. And in rape cases, that babies father has done a terrible thing, but that baby still has a right to life.
Another question you could raise is this. Is taking the possibility of life murder? Because I know there is a time during an unborn child's existence that they have no consciousness. So if you aborted them at that point you wouldn't be removing any consciousness, you would be removing any possibility of it. But if you raise that point you would also have to ask if contraception and even celibacy is taking possibility of life.
So my questions are these. What is murder? What is life? Can murder be justified and if so, in what cases?
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Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:06 pm
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blacktiger3915 says...



Abortion is murder. You are killing an innocent child that did nothing wrong. Just because you made a wrong choice or you have been raped doesn't mean the baby is at fault. If you don't want the child there are many women out there that can't have kids and want to adopt. Stop being selfish and let the child have a life like you have. "Thou shall not kill" doesn't just apply to killing somebody that has don't something wrong to you. You have to asked yourself, would you want your mother or family member to tell you that your mom was going to have an abortion on you?
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Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:18 pm
Sleeping Valor says...



I do, however, firmly believe that my body is mine, and no one has a right to force me to have children.


This made me think a bit. Abortion is also a question of rights.

Does an unborn child--including a little bundle of cells that is only one day towards becoming a person--have the right to live?

I'm not saying they don't, because deep down in my heart I think that they do. But what is right and wrong is often a question of not only respecting your rights, but those of others. So I'll say that yes; unborn children have the right to live. From the moment you are conceived, you are a human being and have the same rights as any other human being. Fair?

But now, does a child, or a woman, have the right to her body? Do we, (or they), as human beings, have the right to decide what happens to their bodies?

I think this is a yes or no question. And I'm going to say yes. I think that anyone, man or woman, has a right to decide what happens to their bodies. I think we have a right to decide if we want to have a child or not.

But, that doesn't necessarily mean we have a right to abort. The way I see it, if a potential child has the same rights as any other human being, and women have the right to their body, then what do you do if the woman doesn't want to carry a child?

To make abortion illegal is the same as deciding to force women to have children. Keeping in mind, having a child includes the 9 months of pregnancy that comes along with it.

So, if a woman has a right to her body, and thus the right to NOT have a child--but the child themselves has a right to live, what do you do?

If there was a way to take a baby out of a person's body and raise it somewhere else (another person's body?), then I would think that should be the solution. No one should be forced to have something they don't want happen to their body happen. To me that feels like rape, having someone (in this case the child, and the government that made the abortion illegal) force themselves on you. They have a right to live, but they shouldn't have the right to make you do something you don't want to.

But that scientific method doesn't exist, so for a pregnant woman the only option is either having the child or ending its existence. And then the question becomes: if a woman has a right to her body, and the child has a right to live, which one do you chose? The child's right, or the woman's? Is it fair--humane even--to take away one's rights in favor of the other's? And again--if the child has equal rights, is it infringing on the mother's? Can we even give an unborn child the same rights as a born child--since they can't actually choose to burden their mother?

>.< Very complicated train of thought. Though it feels like the right one--even if I can't find an answer. In a perfect world, we should respect everyone's rights. But it's not always possible to do that--as with this case.

What happens if you birth a child--because you think abortion is wrong--but have already decided that you don't want it? What are the laws regarding that? Can you put a child up for adoption right away?

Not to mention, what about if having the child depresses you so much (such as maybe in the case or rape, or even accident) that you're pushed to killing yourself (hormones being already insane as it is)? I'd think that doesn't change anything, but if we're making abortion illegal, how would we handle such cases? Put them on anti-depressants?

Also, who has a right to chose if a child lives or dies? Society, or the mother? Women call their children 'my baby', and the child is theirs--but not their property, right? Or does the fact the child is a part of their body make them--while they are in their body--a part of the mother and thus subject to her choices? And if not, then who can decide who the child belongs to? I'd say the child belongs to themselves--but if we are asking ourselves if abortion should be illegal or not--aren't we really asking ourselves wether society(morals) has the right to decide who lives and dies?

>.< This is my thinking process, again. Except the more abstract version--basically what happens when I start to rethink my beliefs. Not all of these questions are 100% serious, in the sense that I don't always think logically so I might ask a question that makes no sense or is stupid while en route to the truth. =P So nobody go too crazy over this.

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:29 pm
shotgun2983 says...



Okay, for starters, its not murder because technicly (hope its spelled right) the child is NOT alive as long as the abortion is completed within up to three months of pregnency.

Abortions should be allowed. Anything can happen that can causes pregnency. What if the woman is raped, or the condom breaks? It can't be helped. And most the time abortion is a good thing. If you are young and still in school, it basicly ruins your life. The parents end up taking care of the child and then the woman has to get a job to take care of the child, it can grow up in a bad enviroment, and the paren't lives are basicly ruined. The dreams of the future and what not are gone.

And as for places like foster homes, they just plain suck. I had a friend who was in 5 different foster homes around New York and they were just terrible.

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Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:12 am
Gadi. says...



Why is killing a fetus called a "murder"? I disagree immensely.

Yes, you are killing a fetus: but that fetus is not thinking for its own, it's not living for it's own, and it has never really did anything by itself. In my opinion, execution is a far more terrible crime than abortion: it's the intentional killing of a thinking, living, reasoning human being who has feelings and who is genuinely scared of dying. Whereas a fetus is not afraid of anything.

A woman has the right to choose. She will abort her fetus because

a) she is pennyless
b) she was raped
c) she was drunk or high or whatever when the conception occured
d) she thinks she can't fully raise a baby
e) she is young
f) there is no male figure
etc. etc. etc.

I think that the woman deserves to be free and to live her life to the full extent, and that if she has to kill a fetus
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Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:38 pm
Kelsi222 says...



Wow. I didn't know so many people were for abortion. I am also for abortion. With the whole rape thing, I get that, the women didn't have any chose to get pregnant. But a couple could just have an accident, who says she can't decide she didn't want they baby or go through the trouble to having to take care of it while she is pregnant.

I think being pregnant could really mess up your life if you didn't want it.

As you see, I don't have a lot to back my opinion up. But I have parents that would kick me out if I was to get pregnant tomorrow (I'm only 14), so if I want to live safely, I would have to get an abortion.

I don't believe it is murder. It's a women's body, and she can do what ever she wants with it. But I do agree that if you wanted to have to have sex, then you should be responsible when it comes to the consequence. And in my opinion, I think getting an abortion if you don't want your baby, is being somewhat responsibly.

Kelsi =)




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Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:28 pm
Aedomir says...



With abortions, I agree with it, if the child is about to brought into a world of poverty. If the baby was an accident that won't be treated well, then let's not put it in misery. It can't hate you if it doesn't exist. If she just gets drunk every night, then what does she exect? They shouldn't risk fertilsation is a baby is possible. All children should be loved, and if they won't be, why make them feel unloved?
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Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:40 pm
Griffinkeeper says...



Yes, you are killing a fetus: but that fetus is not thinking for its own, it's not living for it's own, and it has never really did anything by itself.


I fail to see how this justifies its termination. We're unable to determine when Human beings actually do begin to think for themselves and live for themselves. Babies are utterly dependent on their mothers and they're not yet sentient (that is, self aware.) How then is the situation different from that of a fetus?

The only difference is time. Fetus's haven't been around for as long as babies. For this, they can be terminated, yet for babies there is virtual immunity.

Furthermore, people haven't been able to define what thinking and living for yourself is. Making decision on such vague terms isn't a good idea.

With abortions, I agree with it, if the child is about to brought into a world of poverty. If the baby was an accident that won't be treated well, then let's not put it in misery. It can't hate you if it doesn't exist. If she just gets drunk every night, then what does she exect? They shouldn't risk fertilsation is a baby is possible. All children should be loved, and if they won't be, why make them feel unloved?


Again, foster homes are good alternative to raising a child you don't want. The child will be loved by a good foster home and his biological mother can live without a care. Furthermore, even if a family is living in relative poverty doesn't mean that this situation is permanent. The present is not necessarily a reflection of the future.

I don't believe it is murder. It's a women's body, and she can do what ever she wants with it.


The fetus is a human entity that has human DNA. Women can do what they want with their body, but the fetus is not a part of their permanent body structure. So does a female really have juristiction over life inside her?
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Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:56 pm
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Kelsi222 says...



Yes there is foster care and all that.

But if the mother is so poor she can't afford the doctor check-up's or the good food she needs to eat to have a health baby, what would she do then??