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A Problem with Plot



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Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:07 pm
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TheSunChildren says...



Good day everyone. I have something to ask you all, and I would appreciate your opinions. Recently, I expanded the story within my novel, now this means that the overall outlook has risen dramatically.

For those of you who do not know – I have two storylines running alongside one another a thousand years apart, now – when I write the main story, originally I had parts of the other storyline extracted in, in the forms of dreams (and so were short in length) But I felt this added inconsistency to the story (especially considering the dreams appeared at infrequent times throughout the chapters (in other words – they didn’t all happen at the beginning or end to make it easier to follow, but some appeared half way though whilst others were a third the way through etc. )

What I did was extract the entire smaller storyline (the dreams) and put it into its own section of the book, and each chapter has a dream to it, so when I mention the character having a dream, the reader knows that if they flick to the same chapter number in the added section, they can find the dream. This also stops the breaking up of the main story line, and adds a bit of extra mystery to the world, but at the same time it will dramatically increase the word count when I expand the shorter dreams into chapters.

The two separate storylines are also in separate countries, and so the reader may be confused from going here and there so many years apart, so each country/time period has a section each. I know this is similar to what Tolkien did, as a friend of mine reminded me, but I want to know if it’s doable (or whether I should just add the dreams back into the chapters. Any feedback is appreciated, just say whether you think this change is too drastic, and also feel free to say which way round would be easier to read, as that is what i strive for.

Thanks
Not many remember how life there began, in the lands amidst surrounding walls of stone and pools of deep darkness, but whilst they forget the secrets of the past, they begin to riddle the future with their growing lust for knowledge, greatness and power.
  





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Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:42 pm
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Kale says...



It depends on what you're trying to accomplish with the dreams.

A separate dream section works if the dreams are supplemental and can be skipped without harming the main story.

Otherwise, if the dreams are essential to supporting the main story, they need to be entwined within the main narrative, otherwise it becomes a real possibility that readers will miss or skip reading the dreams.
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There are no chickens in Hyrule.
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Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:31 pm
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TheSunChildren says...



Hi and thanks,
The dreams act as a foretelling event which show the character in the main plot (similarly) what is going to happen to her. The story can progress without the dreams in the main text, but there are references to the dreams in the main story. it shows my main character how to overcome the problems she faces, which again, when she performs what is needed, the reader can guess at what she has seen, if i hint to it. The only problem really, is that you don't know what she has seen until you read it or make the effort to go back and forth and read what she saw if that's how you want to do it.

I suppose i could briefly describe the dream and what mainly happens, or what the reader should know, but then reference them in full in the other section, would this work well?
It seems viable enough. i just felt that by going from one country to another, a thousand years apart would annoy the reader a little bit, so by replacing it with more vague description it can tell the story just as well, but if the reader wants to know more they can go to the other section.

wow i can waffle sometimes, but please, if you can whether the above idea would work well, i'd love to know, because this is really bugging me now :?

EDIT

ok, so here's an example of what i mean - main text:

Spoiler! :
“Ok Shar” she said “Ok I’ll stop - I’m not too sure what’s happening lately” Ember put the crown away and blew out the candle, eventually closing her eyes, but she was about to witness the first of many dreams that would haunt her for long to come.

*********

It was a rather dark dream if any, of an angered girl, daughter to the Emperor of a mysterious land – Sahfire her name was, and she was a Princess of similar appearance to Ember. Her hair was bronze, yet she had blue eyes and wore a gold and red dress under a red cloak. On her head was the crown that Ember slept besides, but what could it mean? Was it who Ember was to become, who she was in a past life is such a thing existed? For some time Ember couldn’t understand why she was angry, but as the dream went on, all became clear.

Sahfire walked amidst emblem clad banners sporting a sun mural with many swilrs reaching across the material. She stormed forwards and barged into her brother; Fehrnire’s knighting ceremony and her presence stirred uproar of whispers amongst spectators. Fehrnire was known for being a gentle natured Prince, far excluding himself from any battles or blades. Sahfire was not only angry with him for giving in to their father's wishes for him to become a soldier of the country, but also with her father for condoning such carelessness for his child.

The father and daughter argued for some time over the Prince's wellbeing, even though he was older than his sister, she was always the mature one, the one more fitting to one day take the throne. In the Emperor’s frustrated words he said it was only tradition, but Sahfire then showed him she was of another – darker tradition, and her eyes – they went orange around the pupils. She claimed she was the ‘Sun Child’ what ever that may be. And then she stormed off in anger and slammed the palace door closed behind her.

*********

Sahfire’s scream of anger seemed to rattle Ember’s mind and it abruptly woke her. How could a Princess of a land she only heard of in stories have that sort of power over her? The sound of the cry seemed to then come through Ember’s own mouth as she gasped loudly with sweat on her brow.


where the bit in between the lines of asterix is the dream in summary, mentioning all relevent points.


Ok, so here's the original dream which is now in its own section:
Spoiler! :
Chapter One – The Emperor’s Daughter

If there was any one nation thought-out history that can be known for such a hasty rise and fall, it would be Nyshuhr. And as Ember soon found out as she dreamt, there was great mystery about the ancient lands which vanished in the Fourth Era before she was born. Eighteen years into the Third Era the day came when one valiant young girl would stand up to her parents after so long suffering their neglect.

“How could they?” she asked herself. “Sending their son off to war – not a single tear of love lost!” she stopped at a large set of doors and slowly lowered a deep red hood that low over her head. It fell away from a crown which it rest against on the girl’s forehead which was itself covered by a bronze fringe. She wore a red dress covered in golden swirls and it fell neatly to the floor which it moved lightly above. A Princess she was, and she hailed from an Empire now long gone.

The candles flickered manically around her as she stopped and placed her hands around the handles upon the door. “I can do this” she whispered. “I need to say something eventually. Now is a better time than any!” she then groaned as she forced the doors open and emerged into the sunlight between two rows of trees than ran up slopes either side of a stone staircase. As she walked higher up each step, she gazed upon a view she was used to from her times of melancholy. A grand courtyard bordered by trees that overlooked what was called the ‘Red Lake’ in the centre of the city below the palace. It wasn’t really red, but it was covered in lilies and flowers that fell from trees around the banks.

The Courtyard itself was tan in colour and filled with people dressed in lavish robes and banners of the Emperor’s House flew down the aisle. A shaded roof stood over two thrones at the far end where the Emperor himself sat with his wife, and their son, the prince, knelt before them.

The Emperor stood forwards with a sword of gold in his hands, a sword of ancient origin and held similar details to the Princess’ crown. Guards in metallic red armour with tall mains and large shields turned as she passed between them towards their royals of whom they protected with their life. The crowds too were surprised by her appearance; she was not seen in public very often as they were often dismissive of her sort.

She then reached her father, Emperor Sahfron. Since she was born he had to teach her the right path in life and not to follow what Emperor Rhandyr had done to the country nearly five centuries before. He had though, struggled to keep her abilities under control and subsequently he hated what she had become. He was known for his compassion for his family, but he had never shown any affection to his daughter. His son was always the respected Prince, though the Emperor was often dismissive towards him for his idiocy. As now the Prince had decided to become a knight of his Empire his father was pleased. He was knelt on one knee in ornate armour and with a sword held between his hands into the ground.

“You kneel before your Emperor as a servant of your Empire” the Emperor began “To lay down your life and love for your service until death takes you and you vanquish to the netherworlds. To serve your nation until its mountain walls crumble and the gods of old send forth all legions of darkness. Rise now-”

“-Sahfire!” yelled the Emperor, interrupted from his speech. “What do you want?”

“So it’s true? You’re knighting my brother into a life of war! I did not hear anything of this!” she shouted. The crowd behind began to whisper between themselves. It was clear from the shake in th Emperor’s step that he feared how mature Sahfire had become.

“Your brother, Prince Fehrnire, is joining knighthood of his own accord; he wants to honour our family’s proud tradition, carrying on the bloodline of strong and honoured Emperors! Something you wouldn’t understand”

“So our heritage is all about enemy blood and self pride?! Neither compassion nor aid for those lesser in strength?”

“I sacrificed my selflessness to help bring you and your brother up and to put you on the right path, which obviously hasn’t worked. In public you will not address me like this. You are my child, but – I don’t have time for your nonsense!”

Sahfire shook her head and stared closer into her father’s eyes. “Child? I have never felt like anyone’s child. I have never felt loved by anyone apart from my own brother who you obviously care more about despite his weaknesses. I have become stronger through my own accord. I know you fear what I have become, but I never wanted to be the Sun Child!”

As Sahfron turned to think of a retort, Sahfire felt the warmth of the sun emerging through the trees that bordered the courtyard. A growing pain grew within her and she knew all too well what was happening. She closed her eyes.

“I will not be spoken to like this, you-” began Sahfron. He then froze as his daughter opened her eyes. They were no longer their bright blue, but were now a burning orange with her pupils dilated in the centre. They resembled only the image of a small planet being engulfed by a burning sun as it were. And now her hair blew slightly in a mild breeze as she stood defensively before her father.

“I am the inheritant of our family’s darker tradition, one which none rejoice in but only fear. You will not denounce me because of what our ancestors’ did.” she shouted so that all could hear. Her words then drew quieter as she spoke now directly to the Emperor. “If you knew me better father, you would know that I do not desire power, but only the longing for compassion – to be loved as a daughter and to have parents who at least seem pleased I ever came into this world. If you cannot give me that, why am I even here? It is as if I were a misplaced being of the netherworlds!”

Sahfron leaned in closer. “Then go. I am not holding you here. I will not denounce you as my daughter, but the sun child is no one’s ally, only the enemy of all!”

“If you cannot love me as the Sun Child, or even accept that is what I am through no fault of my own, then you cannot love me as your own!” she then stormed off in anger, but Sahfron realised how hard he had been. Not to seem like a weak leader to his people who still stood watching with terrified faces, he chose not to right his vicious behaviour and returned to where his son was still knelt. “Father, Sahfire only wants your love, can you not show her any?” he asked. “Not even you, mother?” Feher, the Empress, loved both her children, but she feared showing them compassion in her husband’s stead. It seemed that Prince Fehrnire was the only one who seemed to understand his sister.

Princess Sahfire glared darkly up at the palace she called home as she fell under its shadow. The three tiers of arches loomed high above her but were soon out of sight as she reached the tree lined steps again. “Why do you even bother?” Sahfire asked herself. It was not uncommon for her to talk to herself, because no one ever went out of their way to speak with her – she was alone.

Her heart and mind were hurting, and with the frustration with her father still futile she turned around and pounded her fist into the wall as she disappeared behind the doors. Candles from within the alcoves burst out in flames and tore through the air, burning tapestries and scorching the statues. Her breaths were heavy as she slowly began to continue to walk on into the darkness.


and now if its its own chapter, i may even expand it to create the separate world better.
Not many remember how life there began, in the lands amidst surrounding walls of stone and pools of deep darkness, but whilst they forget the secrets of the past, they begin to riddle the future with their growing lust for knowledge, greatness and power.
  





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Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:45 am
Kale says...



The summary + supplement would work I think, though if you're going to expand the dreams and world that much, it might be worth developing the dreams into a complementary novella. The only thing you'd have to worry about then would be ensuring that the novella could stand alone well enough to entice new readers to peruse the main work as the readers who've already read the main work would probably be happy to pick up the novella for all its supplemental goodness.
Secretly a Kyllorac, sometimes a Murtle.
There are no chickens in Hyrule.
Princessence: A LMS Project
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Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:04 pm
Tenyo says...



Having two stories alongside eachother... could work, I guess. I can think of movies in which it has worked. The key examples I can think of are A Little Princess in which the mc tell stories to the other girls, and Ice Age, where Scrat has his own adventure running alongside the other characters.

In novels it's much harder to pull off because it needs a purpose. Sara's stories of the mystical, magical land of india are captivating amidst the dull setting of war-ridden England. Scrat's simple obsession adds a lot of comic relief when the story starts to get too heavy for a younger audiance, and he also shows the ice age from the perspective of a teeny tiny mammel.

However, movies have split scenes and carryovers and all those techniques because they're designed to skip quickly between shots. To do it in a novel there's a lot you're going to have to sacrifice.

#Attention
Reading two different stories at once will feel like just that: trying to read two different novels at the same time. It's likely that your reader will be distracted and probably skip over some or half of the chapters. It's like trying to learn English and Math in the same lesson.

#Enchantment
One of the main attractions of a novel is the ability to find a beautiful glimpse into another world and lose yourself in it, but when you have two stories alongside eachother, you can only lose yourself until the whole world suddenly switches around again.

#Creativity
When there are two stories going on you can't go into too many details with each world, especially if you expect your reader to follow along with the plot. Rather than having one deep world that can swallow someone into the pages, you will have instead two shallow worlds that can be skipped through. Otherwise you could have two deep worlds that just tumble over eachother and get your reader lost in confusion.

#Dynamics
No two people are alike, and so the interactions between people are never alike. If you have two stories you'll need to minimise your cast of characters, otherwise you'll have twice as many as you should and it will be too hard to keep track of them all.
Your characters interact in different ways, the more interesting their relationships, the more interesting the characters. But if you have two MC's and two Best Friends for example, you either have to make both relationships the same, or completely different.


Usually the side story needs a purpose, so first of all find it. Then you have to be aware that in applying this technique there's a lot you're going to have to sacrifice so you need to find other ways to compensate and stop your novel falling flat.
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Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:34 pm
TheSunChildren says...



Hello, and thanks for your reply :)

You've given some very good points about the distraction to focus and the minimising of character and world building, which i have already realised are going to be a problem, but now you've clarified it, i know its a problem.

What i have already begun to do is to remove all extended dreams, and instead summarise them keeping only the important names, places, messages and meaning which relate to the main plot, and they are very significant to the main plot, bu the main plot can survive without the dreams being in detail, so long as the above are mentioned. i am however, heeding previous advice and forming a spin off novella which explains the dreams in more detail, which i may one day develop into a full 'The Sun Children III' which i have been planning to skip because of the dreams, but now see it may be better and more sensible to put it into its own story, so thanks again, everyone's advice has really helped with this, now i know what i must do :D
Not many remember how life there began, in the lands amidst surrounding walls of stone and pools of deep darkness, but whilst they forget the secrets of the past, they begin to riddle the future with their growing lust for knowledge, greatness and power.
  








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