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Mary Sue or Not?



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Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:10 pm
katiehorsie says...



So I designed a character for the book I am working on (work.php?id=96194 is the first chapter)and, according to some, she is a Mary Sue.

So, physically, she is very pretty, but she is really skinny when the norm for girls of her rank in her time (medievalish book so I use things like marrying young and such) is to be closer to the chubby side. Anyways, besides that, she is very good with swords, prefers to fight with knifes (which she is better at because she is kind of short), and is good with horses and such.

Now, sounds Mary Sue in that description? That is actually kind of what I wanted. The more character development I do with her, the less perfect she is. Basically, her entire family was killed in front of when she was really little, so she does have some PTS. Mainly for that reason, she is pretty cold to most people, and - even though she is friendly with a few - she never really lets herself get close to others and never opens up. On top of those things, there are several scenes such as:

"Now that leaving was staring her right in the face, she felt less and less like she could go back to her old life. She had come to this place nothing more than a clumsy child who couldn’t so much as walk without tripping over her own feet. The only thing she had to rely on then was her mind.
Sure, she may now seem like the person she should be, but she was far from it. She had spent hours and hours training with her uncle just so she stopped tripping over her own feet. Hours more were added to that to hold a sword properly. She had had to devise her own fighting style to make up for her size. She had practiced with her bow until her fingers were bloody and raw from pulling back on the bowstring so much. The only physical thing about her that she was born with was her looks. Everything else from the way she moved to her to her lean muscles were born from endless amounts of hard work and training."

These occur periodically, and the further it goes in the story, the harder she has to try and work. Do you all think that balances out the outer perfection she shows off? Or am I the only one that doesn't think that she is a Mary Sue?
If you do think she is a Mary Sue, can you please give me some advice on how to fix that?
  





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Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:43 pm
Love says...



So, I can't actually read it at the moment, but most if not all Mary Sues have a tragic past. Your character appears to.
I was Amareth :)
  





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Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:53 pm
katiehorsie says...



Keep in mind, it is about a war. There are going to be lots of people who are greatly affected by it.
  





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Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:57 pm
Rosendorn says...



A Mary Sue isn't defined by their traits (many very beloved characters are Sues if you go by that definition). They are determined by how the author writes them.

One thing that tends to scream "Mary Sue!" is the author flaunting the characters' skills. Going out of their way to say it at every opportunity. Regardless of how much work she put into it, the more you tell us how Awesome she is because of her looks and training, the more readers are going to call a Sue.

Don't treat her like an above average human being. If she holds that attitude of herself, then let her ego shine on through the prose so readers see she holds the attitude of "I'm better than you", instead of it being the prose going "Look at how hard she's worked for her skills." (The former is interesting and leads to readers wondering how she'll grow, the latter is often a Sue)

Let her make mistakes. Not just big ones— little ones. All kinds of mistakes. Don't tell us about her skills (which is general good writing practice and applies to everybody, else you'll fall under Informed Ability, with readers wondering if all these praises are true.) Show her fighting and beating people. Show her hardship from training.

Also, Sues don't have full, deep, dramatic repercussions from their backstory. Research PTSDs very in depth if you're going to give her one. The triggers are as varied as the people who get PTSDs, and you can get PTSDs from many, many other things besides war. While there are baseline qualifiers for having a PTSD, the results can be very different depending on the person. PTSDs are not something you slap onto a character lightly, and believe me when I say a PTSD can cause far worse than simply "being cold to people" because she lost her family. That sounds more like regular stoicism (it can still be developed from losing her family) than a PTSD. But, as I said myself, the symptoms can vary. You just have to figure out the correlation between "family was killed" to "being cold to people because of it." (Ie- she needs a trigger about people that puts her back to that moment)

The thing to remember is: a PTSD brings you back to the event pretty much every time you remember it or are triggered. This can lead to feelings of extreme panic, stress, and various other physiological reactions (nausea, catatonia, crying, shaking). It is quite a bit more than what you outlined. Also remember that the feelings may or may not change with time (you can still have a bad PTSD years later. A key factor in diagnosing post traumatic stress disorder is that the symptoms don't go away or even diminish much after a long period of time).

Remember that war is difficult and quite a few veterans go home and never actually leave the war zone. The people living in the war area also feel similar trauma, but in different types. Make sure she's not the only one living in this war zone who has a PTSD about it.

TL;DR: Show, don't tell, your MCs skills, let her make mistakes, don't treat her like an above average human being and make sure your backstory deeply impacts her, instead of just being a surface flaw that comes up at the Most Dramatic Moment. It should be a weight on her day to day life, especially if recent.
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





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Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:34 pm
katiehorsie says...



Thanks ^^. I do spend a lot of time just messing with my characters in my head, so I don't have straight out descriptions of them so much as things they do and how they act. As far as what happened to her family and how it affected her, it's normally nothing really more than lengths of time when she has really bad nightmares where she basically just relives it over and over. I have plans for that fun thing. And thanks again, I will use your advice a lot. ^^
  





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Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:48 pm
Rosendorn says...



Nightmares aren't the only thing that define a PTSD. They can be a symptom, but they are far from the only one. (You can still give her nightmares, but just giving her stoicism to others and nightmares does not post traumatic stress make.)

Like I said. Research post traumatic stress in depth. I'm not sure I've ever met somebody who has one (myself included) that doesn't have a daytime trigger.

A quote I've found that seems relevant:

There are three categories of symptoms. The first involves re-experiencing the event. This is the main characteristic of PTSD and it can happen in different ways. Most commonly the person has powerful, recurrent memories of the event, or recurrent nightmares or flashbacks in which they relive their distressing experience. The anniversary of the triggering event, or situations which remind them of it, can also cause extreme discomfort. Avoidance and emotional numbing are the second category of symptoms. The first occurs when people with PTSD avoid encountering scenarios which may remind them of the trauma. Emotional numbing generally begins very soon after the event. A person with PTSD may withdraw from friends and family, lose interest in activities they previously enjoyed or have difficulty feeling emotions, especially those associated with intimacy. Feelings of extreme guilt are also common.

In rare cases, a person may enter dissociative states, lasting anywhere from a few minutes to several days, during which they believe they are reliving the episode, and behave as if it is happening all over again. The third category of symptoms involves changes in sleeping patterns and increased alertness. Insomnia is common and some people with PTSD have difficulty concentrating and finishing tasks. Increased aggression can also result.


Source.

While you have some aspects of PTSDs in your description, it seems a bit more like something you want to pull out whenever you feel like it than something she lives with day to day. Cold to people does not fully cover the emotional numbing— it should be very personal, as well (Ie- difficulty expressing or even feeling emotions).

Research is your friend. Continue to define mental quirks as lists of symptoms until you know enough about any one particular mental illness to safely say "here is what she has and here is why."
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





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Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:56 pm
katiehorsie says...



I am not really planning to out right say that she has anything actually wrong with her. First thing that came to my mind to describe her little quirks with it was PTSD, but now that I read that, I do see parallels with her personality. I will look into it after I finish the report I am supposed to be doing right now... (Procrastinators, unite! ...tomorrow.)
  





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Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:08 pm
Rosendorn says...



It ends up being far easier to define symptoms to a psychological disorder than the disorder itself, especially for umbrella terms. As soon as you label a psychological disorder, especially something as broad as a PTSD, you get people going "Well, that doesn't line up with what I thought it was..." and it can get interesting trying to define it in depth.

Now, you do have to research each disorder you think of giving her to make sure it really fits, because there is nothing quite as nice then to read and thinking "you know, they probably have this and it's nice to see it shown realistically".

I am glad you're not going to define what it is/that there's anything wrong with her, but please take great pains to not simply use the backstory as a source of angst. Yeah, make it mess with her life. And yeah, make it harder for her to do some stuff or have certain traits nobody can seem to explain. But don't just paint the quirks on the surface and call them issues.
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





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Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:23 pm
katiehorsie says...



Will do and thanks again :D
  





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Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:57 am
TickSeed says...



If you (or anyone really) is intrested, someone has actually developed a test you can take to kind of figure out where you stand:

http://www.katfeete.net/writing/marysue.html

I personally use this alot for my characters too ! :smt003
  





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Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:51 pm
Rosendorn says...



Mary Sue tests aren't accurate in the slightest; they base their tests on skills and don't take how they're written into account at all. Some of the most beloved characters ever written score very high on those tests. I've already outlined that point here, so I won't clog up this post.

My own character scores well over the "kill them off, they're an irredeemable sue!" levels, but she is far from a Sue. I have received outside confirmation from several sources that she isn't one. Which just proves my point that it's not their traits that make a sue; it's how they're written.

Mary Sue tests are really only good for the laughs.
A writer is a world trapped in a person— Victor Hugo

Ink is blood. Paper is bandages. The wounded press books to their heart to know they're not alone.
  





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Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:21 am
katiehorsie says...



My friend and I were actually just arguing about that. My character got a 73 on a Mary Sue test when it was questions such as "How many languages are they fluent in" or "How many skills are they the best or one of the best at?" when she had been born to a very powerful family - and born with her family knowing that if she was a girl, she would marry a prince - so she was trained from a really, really young age to do all of these things. And the test said that most of my characters were Mary Sues because they had circumstances much like hers where they were trained from a young age for things.
  








"The day, which was one of the first of spring, cheered even me by the loveliness of its sunshine and the balminess of the air. I felt emotions of gentleness and pleasure, that had long appeared dead, revive within me. Half surprised by the novelty of these sensations, I allowed myself to be borne away by them, and forgetting my solitude and deformity, dared to be happy."
— Mary Shelley, Frankenstein