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Unruly Antagonists



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Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:55 am
Shafter says...



Okay, here's the situation.

My antagonist has unexpectedly shown his good side. He's still done a lot of bad things, but he's not as inherently evil as I first thought. However... if I let him have his way, he may completely change sides and actually be fighting with the people he's supposed to be fighting against, including my protagonist.

So... do you think it's possible for an antagonist to turn out somewhat "good" in the end? Would that be cheating the reader? Cheating the hero? Cheating the antagonist? What am I doing wrong?

Has this sort of thing happened to anyone else?

If so, I'd appreciate any advice on how to handle the situation, strategies that worked for you, etc. And, if not... well, then, back to the drawing board, right? *wry smile*

Hope to hear from y'all soon.
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Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:18 am
Snoink says...



Well... don't put labels as far as "antagonist" and "protagonist" goes. I know that, when I first started writing, I did this all the time, but I never really got better or anything. Like, for example, one of the protagonists in FREAK now (Sadie's father) used to be this curel, evil man. But he ended up turning into a protagonist. As far as the man cast to be the "good" person? He became Claude, who is pretty much the most hated main character of FREAK. So I don't know. I was resistant of those changes at first, but I decided to let my characters get the final word in, and hey! It all worked out in the end. :)

If your antagonist turns into a protagonist, let him. Of course, this raises the question whether you're cheating the reader, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. You might have to rewrite a little bit, giving his character more depth in the previous chapters, but that's creating a good character. And we love those. ;)

And don't try to go completely off of labels... those thing sare bad. :P
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Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:18 am
Poor Imp says...



Shafter wrote:Okay, here's the situation.

My antagonist has unexpectedly shown his good side. He's still done a lot of bad things, but he's not as inherently evil as I first thought. However... if I let him have his way, he may completely change sides and actually be fighting with the people he's supposed to be fighting against, including my protagonist.

So... do you think it's possible for an antagonist to turn out somewhat "good" in the end? Would that be cheating the reader? Cheating the hero? Cheating the antagonist? What am I doing wrong?

Has this sort of thing happened to anyone else?

If so, I'd appreciate any advice on how to handle the situation, strategies that worked for you, etc. And, if not... well, then, back to the drawing board, right? *wry smile*

Hope to hear from y'all soon.


What then, is the conflict? At that point, from the little you've said, it sounds rather likely that the protagonist won't necassarily work easily and thoughtlessly with the former--or less antagonistically inclined--antagonist. ^_^

That, naturally, could be your conflict.
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Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:21 am
Griffinkeeper says...



Antagonists need not be evil, they could easily be rivals.

If your character wants to be on the good side, let him. Whatever he is fighting against is the new antagonist.
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Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:50 pm
gyrfalcon says...



Are we talking about Feron-Sheous (sp?) or that general whats-his-name (starts with the Kaz)? Ooo! Gyr has an idea, PM me and I'll tell you about it! (or, you know, we could just talk when I see you this evening)
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Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:13 am
Elelel says...



It could work out to make the story more interesting! If the characters are trying to run things for themselves, it's a good thing.

You don't have to let them get away with it, but it will probably help the situation if you convince them that they want to do it your way, rather than theirs. But I think this could work out pretty well with the baddie changing sides. People change. There's no reason why characters can't.

Anyway, if you really want a bad guy, the original bad guy's sidekick or minion or something can always rise up and take his place.

I'm not really fond of the words "protagonist" and "antagonist" though. I think today someone described a character as the "protangonist" in English today, and the teacher told them to be really careful when doing that, because it didn't just mean the good guy. I think she said it comes from the word "first", or something.

Yeah. Don't give them labels. They are people, and deserve to be treated equally!
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Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:15 pm
Roaming Shadow says...



Hey, enemy becomming ally isn't necessarily a bad thing. That's what's helped many stories before. However, if your lead villian is your only real villian and he switches sides, then you may have a problem. Because then, you don't have anything to fight against, or for; the problem's solved on its own. If, however, there's something more sinister behind him, or he was part of a collective evil whole that can go on without him, then I don't think you have any problem, and should run with that idea and see where it takes you.

When you let things flow out naturally, your writing will likely sound more natural, not contrived or scripted. Plus, you can go a myriad of ways with this twist. Just make sure your plot is still there, that there is still a major conflict with high stakes, and you should be fine
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Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:15 pm
Myth says...



I haven't read what the others have said but every one has two sides. There is good in 'evil' people, even if it is a very small part of them. I think the action of what the person will show whether they did good or bad, someone can go around killing people yet have love in their heart for someone/thing close to them.

If that didn't make sense I'll try to clarify later.
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Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:27 am
Snoink says...



Roaming Shadow wrote:Hey, enemy becomming ally isn't necessarily a bad thing. That's what's helped many stories before. However, if your lead villian is your only real villian and he switches sides, then you may have a problem. Because then, you don't have anything to fight against, or for; the problem's solved on its own. If, however, there's something more sinister behind him, or he was part of a collective evil whole that can go on without him, then I don't think you have any problem, and should run with that idea and see where it takes you.

When you let things flow out naturally, your writing will likely sound more natural, not contrived or scripted. Plus, you can go a myriad of ways with this twist. Just make sure your plot is still there, that there is still a major conflict with high stakes, and you should be fine


Not necessarily. People only fight against other people because they are physical embodiments of something greater. So When Luke Skywalker was battling Darth Vader, he wasn't really battling Darth Vader. He was battling the Empire. Sounds weird, but it's true. And besides... sometimes people are so entrenched into that system that, no matter how much they want to get out, they can't. So they're "bad guys" regardless of what they do.

And characters don't have to "fight" against other characters for there to be a story. Goodness knows, you have enough crap to deal with, just in life! O_o
Ubi caritas est vera, Deus ibi est.

"The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls the butterfly." ~ Richard Bach

Moth and Myth <- My comic! :D
  





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Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:26 am
Shafter says...



Thanks so much for the advice, everyone! :D
As Gyr would say, the ideas are "percolating" right now; even being worked out. My antagonist remains in conflict with my protagonist, but he's still sort-of/kind-of fighting for the same cause. Yeah, it's complex, but it's working out! Huzzah!
You guys were a great help, thanks again.
Cheers! ~Shafter
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