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LamaLama
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 Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| I think that kind of blatant bigotry is really uncalled for Backgroundbob. Show a little backbone why-don't-cha? Let it go. |
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Buscador!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| One cannot forget God in good conscience. The consiquences for denying the faith are clear. He chose to deny Allah, and therefore must accept the consiquence as laid out by the law. You believe our laws to be archaic, useless, unjust. Until you are willing to fully understand our faith and our culture, you have no place to criticise what was to be done to this man. It is plain to me that you refuse to accept that any point of view outside of the West's may be valid. The punishment for denying Allah is death. Right or wrong, just or injust, that is the way it is. It will not change, no matter how much the United States may bluster and complain. |
Do you, then, claim to understand the Christian faith?
And forgive me for bringing up another, unrelated point, but it is not "the West's" point of view, it is most of the world's point of view. In most belief systems, killing is frowned upon. Killing is one of the few things that the majority of people in the world will agree is not a good thing.
Back to my point. In America, as well as in Britain, I believe, freedom of speech is a protected right. We are allowed to speak out against, criticize, and disagree with anything and everything, and we do so almost religiously. We have learned to fight, learned to argue with what we believe is wrong until we make it so we believe it to be right. Beliefs can never be wrong. Actions can. Killing people is wrong, with few exceptions. Forcing your beliefs on another is wrong under any circumstances. Afghanistan, by killing this man, is doing both. Bob, you are doing one of these. So are you, Khayriyyah.
Somehow, Khayriyyah , I don't think you would be able to kill this man simply for believing differently than you, were you given the task of killing him. I know that, were I in that circumstance, I would not be able to do it. Life is too precious for that. If he is to be punished for his beliefs, God will do it; men have no right to decide who lives and who dies. |
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Galatea
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps God is working through the Afghani law to punish this man?
I am not arguing either way. However, I think it is important for both sides to consider one another. I happen to believe in keeping our opinions to ourselves, but that is just me.
I agree with Khay, in that the law is what it is. Our complaints will not change it, NOR will they encourage change, simply encourage the rift between 'Eastern' and 'Western' thought processes. |
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sabradan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:00 am Post subject: |
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So then, Gal, you would just condemn an innocent man, whose only crime is converting to christianity, to death?
To me, it seems, if anyone/thing is being bigoted/intolerant it is the afganis and theyre law. The argument "The Law is the Law" is BS and you all know it.
Up until the civil rights movement, Blacks were treated as second class citizens, with "Separate but (un)equal" clauses to defend doing such. And the defense people used when people questioned it? "The Law is the Law"
So, obviously, you can tell that I think this law is a bunch of horse dung, and the proponents/defenders of it just as full of it, or even worse, bigots. |
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Griffinkeeper
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: |
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I think that the source of this, Khayriyyah, is simply a difference in values.
In Afghanistan, the word of Allah is law. This word comes from god, so in following this, you do God's will by punishing the traitor.
In America though, Allah's word is not law. Even god's word is not law. The people's word is the people's law, any other laws a person follows is by choice, not by force.
In America, the people say that you can practice any religion, so long as it doesn't hurt the others around you. In America, executing a person for changing his religion is religious persecution.
You accuse America and the West of being arrogant because we believe we are the best!
This is true. We think very highly of ourselves. It is part of our character, our identity as a people.
Similarly, your people think very highly of yourselves. America and the West is without the law of Allah, and that makes them morally inferior to you.
Our arrogance comes from being technologically and economically superior to the East. Your arrogance comes from being morally superior to the West.
Arrogance, it seems, is shared by East and West.
In the West, we do not believe any religion is "the best." We do not say, "Allah's word is the best," because others do not believe in Allah. More importantly, no one knows for sure who's word is the best. Afghanistan says "Allah's word is the best, on his word we make our law."
So it is for Afghanistan. If they wish to confine their viewpoint to this one "truth", they are more than welcome to make martyers of Christians.
For Christians believe as muslims do, "Your faith will save you."
You think of this man as a traitor of the muslim faith. This is accurate. You believe that because he is a traitor to the muslim faith, he is a traitor of God. I believe this to be inaccurate.
I think that one is only a traitor to God if one abandons God. Christians believe in the same God as you do, so do the Jews. How then do they abandon God if they worship him in a different manner? Is it worth killing a man if he decides that the word of Mohammad is not what he believes in? Perhaps he feels the word of Christ reflects his own thoughts of God?
Has he really changed his faith if he still believes in God? Or are you killing someone simply for thinking of God?
Such are the things that the West thinks, believes, and questions you about. |
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Lovely, Grif--wonderfully written! |
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sabradan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| clap clap clap |
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backgroundbob
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Gal, if the attack we personal, I would attack her character: I don't really care what she's like as a person.
However, I've backed up all the arguments I've made - those are my conclusions: I'm not sure you can criticise me for being blunt about it. |
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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You think of this man as a traitor of the muslim faith. This is accurate. You believe that because he is a traitor to the muslim faith, he is a traitor of God. I believe this to be inaccurate.
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Excellent point. I agree completely. |
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Rei
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| The only weakness in that arguement, while it is a great one, it would have to work with someone who understands that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same god but call him by a different name. While it is unfair to make assumptions, I'm not sure Khayriyyah educated in other religions to understand this. Then again, this is not about her. This about the man who was punished for converting. Yes, the man was a traitor to one way of worshipping, but not to God. Unfortunately, not everyone understands that Allah is likely the same higher being that Christians and Jews call God and they just have different cultural values. |
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LamaLama
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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You all need to read "No God but God" by Reza Azlan. He makes a good point right at the very beginning that might help you understand where she's coming from a little more. He's on a train, and he can hear an argument in the booth next to him, so he goes over to check it out (This is all non-fiction by the way, it all actually happened.) and the conductor is mad at the two people in the booth for something that he seems to think is indecent. But the family doesn't speak much arabic, and the conductor doesn't speak much english, so no one is understanding any one. So in the course of translating for these people, he eventually calms the conductor down, and as he is leaving, the conductor shouts "CHRISTIANS!" at them, in a very angry manner.
Turns out, that the christian missionaries in the area have gone so far to go undercover to try to convert people, dressing like Muslims and telling agregious lies to convert locals.
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| Because Christian evangelism is often bitterly reproached in muslim countires- thanks in large part to the lingering memory of the colonial endevor, when Europes disastrous 'civilizing mission' went hand in hand with a fervently anti-Islamic "Christianizing mission" - some evangelical institutions now teach their missionaries to "go undercover" in the Muslim world by taking on Muslim identities, wearing Muslim clotihng (including the veil), even fasting and preying as Muslims. At the same time, the US government has encouraged large numbers of Christian aid organizations to take an active role in rebuilding the infrastructures of Iraq and Afghanistan in the wake of the two wars, giving ammunition to those who seek to portray the occupation of those countries as another Crusade of Christians agains Muslims. |
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Rei
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I denfinitely know where she is coming from. European Christians did many horrible things, particularly during the Crusades. The way I see it, Christians who want to force Muslim to convert are also making the mistake in thinking that Allah and God are not probably one and the same being. I was merely pointing out why my dear Griffinkeeper's point would not work with a person like Khayriyyah. |
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sabradan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if we wanna delve deeper into the heart of the problems in the middle east/Muslim world vs Western world, we must remember and take into account that the Crusades are ingrained on their collective memory the way, say, the Holocaust is for Jews.
They (for the most part, I'm generalizing here as Ive only spoken to a few close Muslim freinds about this topic) believe that all wars in the middle east engaged or initiated by the west is just yet another continuation of the Crusades, another attempt to take away their land and convert them all to Christianity. Which, I can understand to an extent, especially when people like Ann "The Man" Coulter says things like
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| We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war |
However, they feel that this is true of all conflicts of Islam vs Christianity/the West. They view Israel/Zionism as merely a continuation of the Crusades. They view the first gulf war (liberating Kuwait from Saddam) as an extension of the Crusades. They view the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as an extension of the Crusades. They view America's/Europe's meddling with Iran's nuclear program as...you guessed it, a continuation of the crusades. Which, in my oppinion at least, stupid. Some of these things, yes, I could see it (War on Iraq) and especially if its in the form of Invasion, but I don't really comprehend how every Muslim vs West conflict is somehow a Crusade.
Meh. It is what it is. |
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Rei
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah. And this situation, and response to it is a perfect example. This Western countries, we believe people have the right to choose. It does not force anyone to become Christian, even if the majority of us are. |
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| You misunderstand me. I never said I felt no compassion for this man. I do. I am sad for him, his family, his heart and his soul. Although I live in the United States, I was not raised to question the laws by which we live. It is not my place to question Allah's law. This is how I was raised, how I was taught to believe. None of you have to agree with me, as I do not have to agree with you. That is something I learned here. You do, however, have to understand. I am insulted and saddened to have my faith so placed under attack. I thought I was allowed to speak freely here, allowed to have my own opinions. And I am criticized because my religion forbids me to deny Allah's law? This is not fair. I am Iraqi, and I am proud of my country, my religion, my heritage. Yet the United States took it upon themselves to come change my country. Could I agree or disagree? Did I have a choice? This also, is not fair. So you see? The world is full of things that are not, nor will ever be fair. The world is as God wishes, and I cannot change it. |
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